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All History Before 1600's is "Questionable"
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@Asforme&myhouse He is our mana from heaven
So He is literally bread?
Euphemisms, imagery, metaphors, all still mean something. Yet there isn't a single metaphor used in the creation account.
To call the Antichrist the beast, doesn't mean that he is a literal beast, but that he is one, in some way. This is what it means to understand language. If a man runs like a cheetah, of course he doesn't, it is impossible to, but it does mean that he is very fast like one.
Jesus isn't literally bread, but he is our mana from heaven, sent by God. He is like the bread that the israellites needed to live, when they were in the wilderness.
Yet none of this has anything to do with that. Unless you believe the creation account is just one big metaphor. But by that point, you get to pick and choose what is literal or not. Ken Ham surely doesn't believe that Genesis is a metaphor, and not meant to be taken literal.
I don't see how God putting a firmament in water could be made into a metaphor. Especially as it is consistent throughout the bible all the way to the book of Revelation. The idea of heavens opening, can only be had with the original concept of a firmament, the structure over our heads.
The firmament is called, termed heaven in Genesis. So when you see the heavens opening it is the firmament structure.
“And God called the firmament Heaven.”
Genesis 1:8
Hence
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”
Revelation 19:11
It doesn't make sense any other way. How could the heavens open and Christ come into our world, if there isn't something to open. It is the firmament, lines up consistently all the way from Genesis to Revelation.
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I think you are doing what you accuse others of doing with “science”. You’ve painted a picture in your mind of what you think the text is depicting and that mental picture blocks your ability to see it from any other perspective. The other side could be doing that too, however, it makes far more sense to interpret what we read taking what we can see and study into account. You are interpreting what you read about creation based on something that cannot be seen or studied or tested. If I told you that watermelons are blue on the inside until you break the skin, how would you prove me wrong? You couldn’t disprove what I said, but it doesn’t necessarily make my statement true. Likewise what you are saying hasn’t been observed or demonstrated, we just have to take your word for it. The statements in Genesis fit perfectly fine with a globe and a canopy of water around it that came down during the flood. There is nothing there that would indicate infinite water in all directions, that is your imaginative presumption. In fact the text mentions the surface of said water indicating it was not infinite. Since it is not infinite then what prevents it from simply being a canopy? Or by the same token the entire solar system and galaxies could exist within an outer shell of water beyond the edge of the known universe. You don’t even offer any proof of the shape of the earth and say that it isn’t important, but that just seems lazy to me. If the globe model is a lie that denigrates Scripture then why don’t you do the work of seeking out the truth and bring forth the evidence scientifically. If it was known for centuries that the earth is just the set of the Truman Show and that fact has been concealed by evil men, then go disprove it with actual evidence. If the satellite photos are doctored or edited wouldn’t it be the frontier of discovery to send up your own satellite or balloons and document what is really there? What see and observe of the universe fits Genesis. If you want to change people’s minds and change the current state of understanding, bring some evidence.
Yeah agree to disagree to all of that. I laid out in plain terms how all that is biblically wrong. I started with the understanding you have of the world, and chose what the bible says, over it. We don't have to agree at all. It's all good bro.
No, you chose one interpretation of what the Bible says. To illustrate:
The concepts that the creation account is entirely metaphorical (standard theistic evolution), largely literal but using some metaphorical language (standard creationism), and completely literal down to the last word (your perspective), are three different interpretations of what the Bible says. All proponents of all three of them stand firmly on the words of scripture and say "this is what the Bible says". You have not simply chosen what the Bible says, you have chosen your interpretation of what it says.
The question is therefore not just "what does the Bible say", the question is "what do those words MEAN". Obviously these interpretations can't be all true. Which is most reasonable?
You agree that metaphorical language is used some places in scripture. Where is the line between metaphor and fact? That is a matter for legitimate debate, not outright dismissal.
As what you are saying is but one interpretation of scripture, and you have presented zero evidence that this interpretation is correct other than asserting it is so, at this stage the only reasonable thing to do is to reject it in favour of another interpretation which aligns with more evidence.
Ok, please explain to me this passage...
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
Genesis 1:1-2
What is in the beginning? In verses 1-2?
And then please, go on to explain this segment as well to the best of your abilities...
“And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.”
Genesis 1:6-9
Do you think that God is speaking metaphorically here in this part of creation week? If so, what purpose would the metaphor suit?
And then again, please go on to explain why there may be a connection between the waters in Genesis 1:6-9 and this passage? Unless you do not see a connection.
“Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, And ye waters that be above the heavens.”
Psalm 148:4
Do you believe this is after the flood, as it seems to be to me? Psalms tends to be written by people post-flood.
“And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.”
John 1:51
He says ye, as in you all will see it for yourselves
“Though he had commanded the clouds from above, And opened the doors of heaven, And had rained down manna upon them to eat, And had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels' food: He sent them meat to the full.”
Psalm 78:23-25
So manna came down from out of the doors of heaven straight into the hands of men, hmm... sounds very consistent with what I'm seeing in scripture. The firmament maybe?
“And it came to pass as the man of God had spoken to the king, saying, Two measures of barley for a shekel, and a measure of fine flour for a shekel, shall be to morrow about this time in the gate of Samaria: and that Lord answered the man of God, and said, Now, behold, if the LORD should make windows in heaven, might such a thing be? And he said, Behold, thou shalt see it with thine eyes, but shalt not eat thereof.”
2 Kings 7:18-19
in this last passage it seems that speaking of the heavens as a structure was definitely a way to see the world. Saying that the heaven has windows... sounds very similar to what I see in the flood of Noah.
“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
Revelation 21:2
So from out of heaven above, we will see New Jerusalem come down to us... how do you make sense of that? Is God teleporting it here, or is He sending it through some foreign galaxy that He lives in?
I believe that I am completely consistent with the original cosmology shown in Genesis, which is shown throughout the rest of scripture. My evidence is the Word of God. Since its true, you can find this evidence in reality as well. How you take any evidence depends on your own bias and presuppositions. Everyone is hardheaded in their own beliefs, and do not budge even when evidence is shown to them.
The thing is, there are camps that people have their tents set up in. Its hard to pack it all up and move camps. I used to be in your camp actually, but then I became willing to question my original beliefs. I told myself, whatever scripture says is true. After that point I made it my duty to see what the bible consistently says and to make that my camp, and here I am. Same reason for why I believe in marriage the way I do now.
I have the advantage in having all of this scripture to make all of my points with. I'd love to see you all have verses supporting your view of the earth.
Why do you believe in an ever expanding universe? Is it because someone told you? Who told you originally? Are there planets, and aliens? If no, why not? Where is God in your view of all things? Scripture for that? Where is Heaven, where is Hell? Are we merely a speck in the universe? How many other suns and moons did God actually make?
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I'll give a few more posts to this thread, to hear out @FollowingHim and finish up some of the other ideas I didn't yet get to. I don't want to outrun my welcome on the forum. What I'm saying is foolishness to you, and vice versa to me.. So I'll just continue with what the Word says.
The earth is also stationary, having foundations, cannot be moved.
“Who laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be removed for ever.”
Psalm 104:5
“Let all the earth fear the LORD: Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.”
Psalm 33:8-9
“The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; The LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: The world also is stablished, That it cannot be moved.”
Psalm 93:1
“Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: Thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.”
Psalm 119:90
Established
“And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.”
Zechariah 1:11
All of the earth sits still and is at rest...
“Fear before him, all the earth: The world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.”
1 Chronicles 16:30
Stable and be not moved...
“Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.”
Job 38:4
God asks Job a rhetorical question of the foundations He created. Why would God check Job with this question, if He didn't actually do it?
“When he gave to the sea his decree, That the waters should not pass his commandment: When he appointed the foundations of the earth:”
Proverbs 8:29
“Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: And the heavens are the work of thy hands.”
Psalm 102:25
“And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the works of thine hands:”
Hebrews 1:10
“And the channels of the sea appeared, The foundations of the world were discovered, At the rebuking of the LORD, At the blast of the breath of his nostrils.”
2 Samuel 22:16
“And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.”
Isaiah 51:16
“and forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?”
Isaiah 51:13
“Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.”
Isaiah 48:13
“Hear ye, O mountains, the LORD's controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the LORD hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.”
Micah 6:2
This isn't an exhaustive list, I could add much more.
All of these verses line up, just like the firmament verses. Always pointing the same way in unison. There are absolutely no earth flying through space verses. None. The bible paints the world itself, an inverted picture of what you believe. Will you also judge or shame me for believing this? Will you attempt to call these all metaphors as well? Who told you the world was moving? They are the liars. God is true above all things, no matter how many men refute what He has written down for us.
“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, And mightest overcome when thou art judged.”
Romans 3:4
The earth is also stationary, having foundations, cannot be moved.
“Who laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be removed for ever.”
Psalm 104:5
“Let all the earth fear the LORD: Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.”
Psalm 33:8-9
“The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; The LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: The world also is stablished, That it cannot be moved.”
Psalm 93:1
“Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: Thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.”
Psalm 119:90
Established
“And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.”
Zechariah 1:11
All of the earth sits still and is at rest...
“Fear before him, all the earth: The world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.”
1 Chronicles 16:30
Stable and be not moved...
“Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.”
Job 38:4
God asks Job a rhetorical question of the foundations He created. Why would God check Job with this question, if He didn't actually do it?
“When he gave to the sea his decree, That the waters should not pass his commandment: When he appointed the foundations of the earth:”
Proverbs 8:29
“Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: And the heavens are the work of thy hands.”
Psalm 102:25
“And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the works of thine hands:”
Hebrews 1:10
“And the channels of the sea appeared, The foundations of the world were discovered, At the rebuking of the LORD, At the blast of the breath of his nostrils.”
2 Samuel 22:16
“And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.”
Isaiah 51:16
“and forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?”
Isaiah 51:13
“Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.”
Isaiah 48:13
“Hear ye, O mountains, the LORD's controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the LORD hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.”
Micah 6:2
This isn't an exhaustive list, I could add much more.
All of these verses line up, just like the firmament verses. Always pointing the same way in unison. There are absolutely no earth flying through space verses. None. The bible paints the world itself, an inverted picture of what you believe. Will you also judge or shame me for believing this? Will you attempt to call these all metaphors as well? Who told you the world was moving? They are the liars. God is true above all things, no matter how many men refute what He has written down for us.
“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, And mightest overcome when thou art judged.”
Romans 3:4
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This video does a good job of exposing the deception and showing evidence of the flat earth model.
Mudflood and mountains/cities that look like they’ve been melted from possibly Armageddon:
Thanks man, but I just don't need the video. The scriptures alone are enough to inform my worldview. They're good to get the ball rolling for others, I appreciate you though.
Some of the other things you wrote I don't agree with. The whole second coming thing. I definitely don't, and we can speak on that one of these days maybe in a private message. Tataria and mudflood I've looked into. Seems interesting but not totally convinced.
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I meant that video for someone else. That’s completely fine if we don’t agree on everything. I’m the same way - scripture comes first.
I’d love to chat with you regarding the 2nd coming - and having scripture first - and then everything else 2nd. That’s the best way - and it’s what opened my eyes to many spiritual truths. All the best and God bless.
You realize we don’t have one photo from outer space that shows the earth, right? Each and every picture is cgi. Nasa means deceive in Hebrew. NASA doesn’t even have the technology to get to the moon anymore. “They lost it.” They even mistakingly said it’s impossible to go to outer space because of the radiation. The van Allen belts. They have to solve those challenges first before sending anyone up there. I have the videos of these comments - straight from nasa.
You know the planet Pluto - you can actually find the puppy Pluto from the Disney cartoon? It’s all made up cgi images as well. They are literally laughing behind closed doors. They even write things like “sex” on the clouds from official nasa images (cgi) of the earth in outer space (allegedly).
I can send you links of the army and nasa research papers - their calculations always assume the earth is stationary and non-rotating.
The whole world severely mistakes how clever and deceiving Satan is. That’s why scripture says Satan will deceive the whole world - even the elect if possible. It started in the garden with “Has Thou God said,” and what Solomon wrote rings true:
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again, there is nothing new under the sun.
The firmament is translated to “dome” in some translations, because in Hebrew its a “solid” structure. You’re not going to break through it. You can have trillions - you can not leave the earth. It’s a closed system. You’re stuck here. Bill Gates is stuck here. Elon Musk is stuck here. Rothchilds are stuck here. Each one of us will die on earth. And go through the Judgement seat.
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I am genuinely intrigued by what you are saying, but...
Nesa is used in the context of inciting rebellion. And Nasha is used in the context of indebting someone or deceiving them.
Could you provide any evidence for this? Everywhere I see nasa or nasah in the Hebrew texts it is translated as some form of carry, take, pardon, or sustain. I don't see it ever used to mean deceit or anything similar.
Nesa is used in the context of inciting rebellion. And Nasha is used in the context of indebting someone or deceiving them.
@b_ce, you've asked a lot of questions, I'm not going to address every point, just jump to the heart of the matter.
The firmament is also defined clearly and unambiguously in the passage that you yourself have cited. "And God called the firmament Heaven". The words "heaven" and "firmament" are synonymous, because "heaven" is simply the name for the firmament. So what is "heaven" (šāmayim, H8064)?
That too we can find directly from scripture. If we look at other instances of the word "heaven", we immediately find that heaven is what the birds fly in (1:20). As a result, flying birds are repeatedly called the "fowl of the air/heaven" (1:26,28,30). And heaven is where the stars and planets are (1:14-17).
In other words, the firmament of heaven is the space above us, including both the atmosphere and the space beyond the atmosphere containing the heavenly bodies. According to Genesis 1 (and many other places in scripture, but Genesis 1 is sufficient), where it is defined unambigously.
Now, I agree it is strange that the word "firmament" is used for this. That word does appear to have the connotation of a hard, thin sheet of something. Yet it cannot be a hard surface, because birds are said to fly in it, and birds cannot fly "in" a hard surface. So we must not rely on lexicons and scholars to define theology for us, we must rely on the Bible. And Genesis itself clearly defines this word as meaning, at least in the context of Genesis 1, the air. Whatever the scholars might say, we have to stick to scripture and trust that.
And God speaks to us from heaven. Now, have you ever heard someone describe hearing the voice of God, or even heard his voice audibly yourself? Whenever this occurs, people describe it as hearing a voice just beside them, out of the air. When the Bible says that God speaks "from heaven", it doesn't mean he shouts down with a megaphone from miles up in the sky. It means that he speaks "from the air".
So where is heaven? Heaven is basically everywhere - everywhere that is not otherwise defined as "earth", everything that you would call "up". Heaven is where God lives, and God is omnipresent - He is everywhere. As the vast majority of the universe is not "earth" but "heaven", we say that God lives in "heaven" - and He speaks to us from heaven, or from the air.
Regarding "Hell", that's tricky to answer as I'm not sure what you mean - the word "hell" is a catch-all term for several different concepts. But it's usually used for Sheol, the grave. The grave is down, because we bury people down in the ground in graves. It's simply the place of the dead, and that place is in the earth. If you however meant the lake of fire when you said "hell", that does not exist yet so we don't need to locate it, I do not know where that will be (though I have theories).
The way we know what important words in scripture mean, is to let scripture interpret scripture. The obvious example being the word "yom" for day. In a lexicon, that word can mean a day, or a longer period of time. The reason we know that in Genesis 1 it means a day is because God intentionally defines it for us in Genesis 1:5 "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." Here the word "yom" is defined as being the light portion of the light/dark cycle we call a day. So we know that creation truly occurred in six literal 24-hour days, because there is no ambiguity.
The firmament is also defined clearly and unambiguously in the passage that you yourself have cited. "And God called the firmament Heaven". The words "heaven" and "firmament" are synonymous, because "heaven" is simply the name for the firmament. So what is "heaven" (šāmayim, H8064)?
That too we can find directly from scripture. If we look at other instances of the word "heaven", we immediately find that heaven is what the birds fly in (1:20). As a result, flying birds are repeatedly called the "fowl of the air/heaven" (1:26,28,30). And heaven is where the stars and planets are (1:14-17).
In other words, the firmament of heaven is the space above us, including both the atmosphere and the space beyond the atmosphere containing the heavenly bodies. According to Genesis 1 (and many other places in scripture, but Genesis 1 is sufficient), where it is defined unambigously.
Now, I agree it is strange that the word "firmament" is used for this. That word does appear to have the connotation of a hard, thin sheet of something. Yet it cannot be a hard surface, because birds are said to fly in it, and birds cannot fly "in" a hard surface. So we must not rely on lexicons and scholars to define theology for us, we must rely on the Bible. And Genesis itself clearly defines this word as meaning, at least in the context of Genesis 1, the air. Whatever the scholars might say, we have to stick to scripture and trust that.
And God speaks to us from heaven. Now, have you ever heard someone describe hearing the voice of God, or even heard his voice audibly yourself? Whenever this occurs, people describe it as hearing a voice just beside them, out of the air. When the Bible says that God speaks "from heaven", it doesn't mean he shouts down with a megaphone from miles up in the sky. It means that he speaks "from the air".
So where is heaven? Heaven is basically everywhere - everywhere that is not otherwise defined as "earth", everything that you would call "up". Heaven is where God lives, and God is omnipresent - He is everywhere. As the vast majority of the universe is not "earth" but "heaven", we say that God lives in "heaven" - and He speaks to us from heaven, or from the air.
Regarding "Hell", that's tricky to answer as I'm not sure what you mean - the word "hell" is a catch-all term for several different concepts. But it's usually used for Sheol, the grave. The grave is down, because we bury people down in the ground in graves. It's simply the place of the dead, and that place is in the earth. If you however meant the lake of fire when you said "hell", that does not exist yet so we don't need to locate it, I do not know where that will be (though I have theories).
I see how you're seeing firmament. To lay out some points. We know the firmament is hard because it is placed into water, and then after there are two bodies of water being separated. These two bodies of water is spoken of in the verse I asked you to explain. Pardon me if I threw too many questions at you. The first verse I asked you to explain was Gen 1:2.
In that verse there is only water and God. Would you agree with that?
In the firmament verse we see the two bodies of water, a division of the water has happened. And now there is a body of water above the firmament and a body of water beneath the firmament. It is a hard structure that has the abilitiy to divide the water, you see?
“And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.”
Genesis 1:7
The translators used the word firmament because of its firm and solid connotations.
The water below is our ocean, see?
“And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.”
Genesis 1:9
But there is still a big body of water above the heavens, still, after the division.
Think of heaven itself being a structure instead of sky. Birds can fly within the structure, that's how the idea of the firmament works. But then the heavens also open, which makes no sense if it is only sky.
Is there a way that the heavens open make senses in your view? That there are things coming in and out of an opening of heaven? Jesus is seen coming out of the opening of heaven in His return. New Jerusalem is seen coming "out of" heaven. The manna comes out of heaven into men's hands. The "windows" of heaven letting down water. Waters above the heavens. These are all firmament related phrases. They directly relate to the verses I asked you to explain to me, in the very beginning and after the flood.
And the viewpoint I hold is likely the original viewpoint people had when reading scripture, it is what I quoted Josephus the historian believing in the first century.
"After this, on the second day, He placed the heavens over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and determined that it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline firmament around it, and put together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews" Josephus
The idea of a large cosmos extending into lightyears is foreign to the Bible, due to the firmament. Everything is within the firmament, and after the firmament is water and then God, in the highest heaven. He is thought of as being literally over the earth.
“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:”
Isaiah 40:22
He isn't actually "far" from anyone of us
“that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”
Acts 17:27
But above, literally above
“And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.”
John 8:23
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No, because God created the heavens and the "earth". Earth is not water. The earth appears to have been covered in water, but this water had a surface, as the Spirit of God was moving "over the face" of the water. This cannot describe an infinite ocean of water, as that would have no surface (the spirit would be described as moving "through the water" not "over the face of the water"). Nor would it ever be described as "earth" - earth is basically the opposite of water. To me, it reads that He simply created a planet covered in water.
Just want to let you all know I'm enjoying reading all of this. It's kind of interesting to think that it is only Satan deceiving me into thinking I have to actually move my telescope to keep up with the moons of Jupiter, or the rings of Saturn, or that the moving dot called the space station that my eyes are deceived into seeing is actually cgi projected onto a massive screen called a firmament and the hurricanes that I see coming towards me on the satellite images are only made up, as I am deceived into believing those same winds only appeared to blow over all my trees.
This has given me a whole new perspective!
This has given me a whole new perspective!
So in creating the heavens and the earth, it is just like when He created man and woman. He lays out the process and then goes into how it is done. Genesis 1 is the summary. Starting from Genesis 2 is how it all went down. In 2 there is only water, the earth is void, right? He is hovering over the face of the water, it is a deep. No earth yet even though it is mentioned in Gen 1. He hasn't gotten to describing just how He placed it.
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