Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C

[Pacman]

Then why not worship and honor the Son of God more than the Law that is within Him? Which is better following the Law or following the One who made the Law?

It isn’t an either or thing. The one who gave the law told us how to love and serve him. And it’s “keep the Torah” So following the Torah is following the one who made the Torah...

My question is how do you know your following Yeshua if you are not keeping portions of the Torah that are totally within your control to keep? The same stuff he kept...

1 John 2:3-6 NASB
[3] By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. [4] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; [5] but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: [6] the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

My question is how do you know your following Yeshua if you are not keeping portions of the Torah that are totally within your control to keep?

Why is this even a caveat? Keep Torah or don’t keep Torah.

Don’t let Christ be the excuse for why you can’t keep parts of Torah.

 

[Cap]

My question is how do you know your following Yeshua if you are not keeping portions of the Torah that are totally within your control to keep? The same stuff he kept...

I am and I do. And I assume you are too. We're all good.

 

[Pacman]

Why is this even a caveat? Keep Torah or don’t keep Torah.

Don’t let Christ be the excuse for why you can’t keep parts of Torah.

We have no temple Etc... those parts are beyond our ability. But you already knew that was what I was referring to.

 

[steve]

As soon as trichinosis is no longer a danger from eating certain unclean meats, then I will consider the argument of not following Torah food laws.

 

[Cap]

(I BELIEVE) We have no temple Etc... those parts are beyond our ability. But you already knew that was what I was referring to.

Isn't that what you meant to say. I BELIEVE we ARE the temple. Some stones are rougher than others, but, hey, I'm not the general contractor on this building project.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

We have no temple Etc... those parts are beyond our ability. But you already knew that was what I was referring to.

What does that have to do with anything? The command is to sacrifice wherever God placed his name on at least a bi-annual basis. Just because the temple is not in Jerusalem any longer doesn’t mean that God has removed his name from the earth. After all, Abraham and countless others sacrificed without a temple or a tabernacle.
How about firstfruits to the levites as well as all the other facets of their inheritance that they are still entitled to? That’s not something that’s too hard to do.

If Christ and the Father hold the Torah to the level you and others say that they do, and this never changes, then the advent of Christ has no bearing on taking anything away from its observance including sacrifices. Neither does the removal of the Temple, after all, Jerusalem wasn’t the first place God placed his name. Anything less than full observance for whatever reason is being partial in the law.

This is a Christianity bias that is exercised by every single TO or Hebrew Roots guy Ive ever met.

If you can be partial in the law in any point, what difference does it make if someone else does the same just in a different point. There’s no difference except that you don’t agree with their level of partiality.

Keep Torah or don’t keep Torah. Just don’t pat yourself on the back unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees. BTW. Don’t factor Christ’s death in as an excuse or reason, that’s a Christianity bias. If he holds Torah to the level you say he does, then that’s no reason not to continue sacrifices and He would of course expect you to keep all Torah.

 

[Pacman]

Isn't that what you meant to say. I BELIEVE we ARE the temple. Some stones are rougher than others, but, hey, I'm not the general contractor on this building project.

Literally brick and mortar temple...

 

[Pacman]

What does that have to do with anything? The command is to sacrifice wherever God placed his name on at least a bi-annual basis. Just because the temple is not in Jerusalem any longer doesn’t mean that God has removed his name from the earth. After all, Abraham and countless others sacrificed without a temple or a tabernacle.
How about firstfruits to the levites as well as all the other facets of their inheritance that they are still entitled to? That’s not something that’s too hard to do.

If Christ and the Father hold the Torah to the level you and others say that they do, and this never changes, then the advent of Christ has no bearing on taking anything away from its observance including sacrifices. Neither does the removal of the Temple, after all, Jerusalem wasn’t the first place God placed his name. Anything less than full observance for whatever reason is being partial in the law.

This is a Christianity bias that is exercised by every single TO or Hebrew Roots guy Ive ever met.

If you can be partial in the law in any point, what difference does it make if someone else does the same just in a different point. There’s no difference except that you don’t agree with their level of partiality.

Keep Torah or don’t keep Torah. Just don’t pat yourself on the back unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees. BTW. Don’t factor Christ’s death in as an excuse or reason, that’s a Christianity bias. If he holds Torah to the level you say he does, then that’s no reason not to continue sacrifices and He would of course expect you to keep all Torah.

Bro I’m still studying through exact application and as I go I am implementing things that I learn. If what you say about sacrifices and Levite’s inheritance is correct and applicable then so be it and I will do those things as well to the best of my ability once I have studied and understood them... I will however not use Grace as an excuse for lawlessness. Romans 6:1-2

Just don’t pat yourself on the back

If something I said came across this way I apologize it isn’t my intention.

 

[Nikud]

Then why not worship and honor the Son of God more than the Law that is within Him? Which is better following the Law or following the One who made the Law

Following the law is obeying Him. Not worshiping the Law. Obeying Him is not legalism or worshipping the law its obedience to the Son. God promised ,through Moses, The Prophet who me must listen to. Its submission of one's will to His authority. You don't see that, fine. I can't see separating the Father, Son, or Ruach from each other or from His word, His instructions on how to live in a pleasing way by avoiding sin.


The Holy Spirit has lead me to do things I don't want to do. When His Spirit lead me to move to a town where I knew no one had no job and no prospects, I didn't want to we made jokes that we were moving to Ninaveh, but we obeyed because the instruction didn't conflict with scritpture. We were blessed for our submission to His Ruach in many ways. I pray to Him, I sing praises to Him. I worship Him. I don't pray to the Holy Spirit. No where in scripture does it say to do that. I don't worship the Holy Spirit scripture does not say to do that. I worship God who has three roles, the Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit (Husband) I Honor the Father by obeying His instructions, I praise Yeshua for the Salvation that comes through Him, I give thanks for the Holy Spirits guidance and the gifts it brings ,more importantly the fruit of the spirit, which I pray for daily.

overwhelming forces presented here in regards to Torah only thought.

You do realise there's more than y'all. On the forum than us right?

but given the level of pressure applied to non Torah followers from a rather intense manner, I'm starting to want to back out too and leave this site to its inevitable course.

Your upset because you can't make us change our beliefs or make us stop talking about them. You make statements and post like shouldn't Torah observance be a private matter not spoken of in public then cry oppression when your called out on BS like that. I know you are aware than many of us know that @Cap is you second avatar that you rebranded your self as to try to distant your self from the statements you made and hostility you cultivated under your previous avatar. This I'm misunderstood and oppressed by the bad Torah Keepers schtick doesn't thread water. We know your beliefs you made clear before.

When it comes to the push back on some of your statements on the Holy Spirit it wasn't the Torah Folk that was laying the smack down, they were for the most part on the side line watching but other Charismatics and those who believe His Rauch basically stopped working after acts. Me, I backed you Alot.

There is a lot of accusations in here but I'm going to let it go.

only one, your not tolerant but are complaining about others not being tolerant, unless your saying you beleive in the hypercharasmatic doctrine???

 

[Cap]

Following the law is obeying Him. Not worshiping the Law. Obeying Him is not legalism or worshipping the law its obedience to the Son, as God promised through Moses The Prophet who me must listen to, its submission of ones will to His authority. You don't see that that's fine. I can't see separating the Father, Son, or Ruach form each other or from His word, and His instructions on How to live in a pleasing way by avoiding sin. The Holy Spirit leads me to do things I don't want to do. When His Spirit lead me to move to a town where I knew no one had no job and no prospects, I didn't want to we made jokes that we were moving to Ninaveh, but we obeyed because the instruction didn't conflict with scritpture. We were blessed for our submission to His Ruach in many ways. I pray to Him, I sing praises to Him. I worship Him. I don't pray to the Holy Spirit. No where in scripture does it say to do that. I don't worship the Holy Spirit scripture does not say to do that. I worship God who has three roles, the Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit (Husband) I Honor the Father by obeying His instructions, I praise Yeshua for the Salvation that comes through Him, I give thanks for the Holy Spirits guidance and the gifts it brings ,more importantly the fruit of the spirit, which I pray for daily.


You do realise there's more than y'all. On the forum than us right?
Your upset because you can't make us change our beliefs or make us stop talking about them. You make statements and post like shouldn't Torah observance be a private matter not spoken of in public then cry oppression when your called out on BS like that. I know you are aware than many of us know that @Cap is you second avatar that you rebranded your self as to try to distant your self from the statements you made and hostility you cultivated under your previous avatar. This I'm misunderstood and oppressed by the bad Torah Keepers schtick doesn't thread water. We know your beliefs you made clear before.

When it comes to the push back on some of your statements on the Holy Spirit it wasn't the Torah Folk that was laying the smack down, they were for the most part on the side line watching but other Charismatics and those who believe His Rauch basically stopped working after acts. Me, I backed you Alot.
only one, your not tolerant but complaint about others not being tolerant, unless your saying you beleive in the hypercharasmatic doctrine???

Dude, you have a lot of pent up hostility. Let it go. My avatar change from many many years ago was approved by the powers that be. However, if you want to bring it up it's the same thing going on now, the larger voice here is attempting to force their belief on those who just want to be at peace with how they worship God, in my mind. With the non stop Torah evangelism going on lately someone has to say something. If you want to follow Torah follow it. I never said it was wrong. I don't becuase I don't feel lead and I do follow the commandments given to me daily. Your walk and my walk are different but we are headed to the same place.

Peace out, bro.

All I'm trying to do is try and keep us in the middle of the road and not go into the grace ditch or the Torah ditch. It's pretty obvious to me that if those who hold to a more charismatic view don't start voicing their belief in Grace this will become a Torah site.

If you have a complaint, the Christian thing do would bring it privately, or report me to those in charge.

 

[Pacman]

All I'm trying to do is try and keep us in the middle of the road and not go into the grace ditch or the Torah ditch.

This is a misnomer they aren’t opposites. They go together... 1 John 2:1-6

 

[Joleneakamama]

We have no temple Etc.

We ARE the temple. We are to present ourselves (our mortal lives) as living sacrifices. We die to self daily to live for Him. We let the holy spirit and challenges of life burn up in us what is unprofitable.

What may happen in the future is hard for us to know regarding a future physical temple.

Many seem to have missed the reuniting of Israel and Judah under Messiah, and are still looking for "ten tribes" to appear somewhere.....even though christians from both houses and all tribes have been inter marrying for thousands of years.
Connecting the dots can be interesting, but when the dots aren't numbered....you could connect them in different ways and get different pictures.
Joseph Dumond kinda goofed at the end in his presentation on the ten tribes....the conclusion he comes to on who America represents makes us one tribe....after he already "proved" the nations that peopled America were many tribes.

Getting too close to the forest to see the trees is one analogy, but believers can also get so focused on one doctrine or aspect of faith that they lose sight of the big picture.
Once you see where Israel went, you see that throughout centuries they have been blessed as nations even while worshipping on Sunday and eating pork....and without "priests" serving in a temple. What has been the downfall of America has been not following God's instructions in majorly big ways. Creating a constitution and declaring it to be the supreme law of the land....usurped the Bible as our law. Giving Congress the ability to make law....opened us up to humanism and that is Baal worship. Allowing any usery opened us up to the financial enslavement we are now in. The murder of the unborn brings the guilt of shedding innocent blood upon our nation... and judgement is inevitable.

I think someday the false Jews will be seen for what they are. Are those "movie moguls" in holy wood really a blessing to this country?
Right now the media and churchianity are in unison ....and people obviously see what they want to see where the state of Israel and people called Jews are concerned.

On the subject of what parts of the law remain....and has anything changed?
Yes, it was to remain until all was fulfilled.
How much meaning might have been intended by those words Yeshua spoke on the cross "It is finished"?
Later He declared that "All power and authority had been given to Him in heaven and earth."
That sounds like our new high priest who is presently reigning until all enemies are put under His feet will lack nothing needed to accomplish the task.

In my limited life experience I am tested as soon as I comprehend a truth. I am held accountable for whatever knowlege I have. I reap what I sow. These and many other laws are constantly experienced.
The truth is what is real. I like real life!
I hope to recognize more truth, and not reject it because of accepting AS truth falsehoods.

That's all the time I have at the moment to share thoughts.

 

[Cap]

This is a misnomer they aren’t opposites. They go together... 1 John 2:1-6

Agree.

 

[The Revolting Man]

3 times in Acts 15?

1)Therefore, I judge not to trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God— 20 but to write to them to abstain from the contamination of idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what is strangled, and from blood.

2)that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. By keeping away from these things, you will do well.

I don't see the third time. I'm tired and may be overlooking it.

According to Acts 15 abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality would be all they are accountable for, but we know that's not true. So we know there is a fallacy in saying that this is the example, the standard for gentile beleivers.

What is then the meaning and purpose of this verse? (It's interesting in the greek, I'll post a literal translation, it would also be illuminating to read Acts it in the Hebrew because you find word puns that are usally only found in writings that are originally written in Hebrew like Mathew) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day, except pointing out that the Apostle Peter recognized the Sabbath as the day celebrated in synagogues, which was on the 7th.

Μωϋσῆς γὰρ ἐκ γενεῶν ἀρχαίων κατὰ πόλιν τοὺς κηρύσσοντας αὐτὸν ἔχει ἐν ταῖς συναγωγαῖς κατὰ πᾶν σάββατον
ἀναγινωσκόμενος

1. 
   because Moses that has been out of the beginning men of the same stock for/on/according to in cities for those who proclaim him and has within to the synagogues for/on/according to all sabbaths being read (in the sense of being taught)
   
   Translators then filter theses words to get the message out. Bias can play a part, but I like to point out this translation came from a person (no Law) was trying to show me I was wrong but was a man of integrity and sent as is. I like. We went step by step with the greek. I just asked if the him could be Him referring to God.
   1. because Moses from the the anceint generations has in cities those who proclaim him and has within the synagogues on the Sabbath (he) is being read (in the sense that Torah is being taught)

That sounds like a reason to just tell them to focus on a few things now they can learn the rest later. Much like we do now with new beleivers. We don't saddle (yoke) them with to much at first so they don't turn away.



I agree, you are 100% correct that there is only one Torah for Israel and those who join them. Romans 11:11-24 and Isaiah 56 I'm glad you finally came around

I have a hard time seeing how Acts 15 doesn't set up a non-Torah holding area for gentile believers. We know that if we confess with our mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead then we will be saved. All of the Apostles seemed to agree in Acts 15 that there was nothing wrong with keeping Torah and that there was no pressing need for gentiles to jump right in to it.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Wrong! Those were evidence of repentance. They were all directly involved with the false god worship those believers were coming out of. The apostles were telling them they expected to see those things stopped in their lives because without that there wasn’t true repentance. Repentance is absolutely part of salvation. The context is set in verse 1 ... (for salvation)

Salvation is doesn't seem to require repentance, it requires a confession of Christ's Lordship and a belief in His resurrection. It seems clear to me that we can't force Torah on new believers. It is unequivocal that we can't force circumcision on them and that pretty much excludes them from Torah.

 

[FollowingHim]

Salvation is doesn't seem to require repentance, it requires a confession of Christ's Lordship

If a confession of Christ's Lordship is truly genuine, the evidence of that will be obedience to His instructions - at least whatever the believer understands those instructions to be. That's repentance. But I agree with you here:

It seems clear to me that we can't force Torah on new believers. It is unequivocal that we can't force circumcision on them and that pretty much excludes them from Torah.

 

[Pacman]

Salvation is doesn't seem to require repentance, it requires a confession of Christ's Lordship and a belief in His resurrection. It seems clear to me that we can't force Torah on new believers. It is unequivocal that we can't force circumcision on them and that pretty much excludes them from Torah.

Bro confession of his lordship is an act of repentance. You are turning from your past “lord” sin and self and more specifically Satan. And turning to the one true Lord Yeshua. And if you simply keep reading you will see in the same passage that the result will be righteousness...

Romans 10:8-10 NASB
[8] But what does it say? "The WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"-that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, [9] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; [10] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Pacman]

Salvation is doesn't seem to require repentance, it requires a confession of Christ's Lordship and a belief in His resurrection. It seems clear to me that we can't force Torah on new believers. It is unequivocal that we can't force circumcision on them and that pretty much excludes them from Torah.

If a confession of Christ's Lordship is truly genuine, the evidence of that will be obedience to His instructions - at least whatever the believer understands those instructions to be. That's repentance. But I agree with you here:

 

[PeteR]

I have a hard time seeing how Acts 15 doesn't set up a non-Torah holding area for gentile believers. We know that if we confess with our mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead then we will be saved. All of the Apostles seemed to agree in Acts 15 that there was nothing wrong with keeping Torah and that there was no pressing need for gentiles to jump right in to it.

In modern context, that might seem the way it worked, but I didn't think it makes sense when put in the culture and context of the time.

There were NO churches or places of fellowship for the new believer to learn and grow in. None. The only option was walking in the door of the local synagogue to the recoiluing stares at 'O.M.G. that unclean GOY.'. Acts 15 is a ruling saying, 'here are the basic things to get fixed first to enter fellowship, then learn Moses on Shabbat.'

We have trouble wrapping our Western mind around the magnitude of what was happening. The 'party of the circumcision' wanted FULL proselyte conversion to the rabbinic Judaism of the day, while Paul was battling against the tradition of the Pharisees and for keeping the written Torah of Moses.. it was a very fine line that makes him so hard to understand. The Acts 15 ruling perfectly filled that: New, non-Jewish, believers in Yeshua were to do a few basic things to be clean enough to come in the synagogue and learn Torah (and not oral traditions...).

We do similar today. Lead a hooker or addict to Yeshua, then lay a couple ground rules... likely a more modest appearance so she's not 'hanging out' in fellowship, leave profanity and harlotry behind, and no drugs. (General example.)