Thanks for making me wake up my wife and daughter in the hotel room as I watched this and couldn't stop myself from laughing out loud, @The Revolting Man!
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General One of our own gets called out
- Thread starter Pacman
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@Cap, I should risk redundancy by re-mentioning that you and I share a Grace Only theological position, but we are not in agreement when it comes to patriarchy. Recent events in my family inspired me to recognize what has been knocking at my mental door for decades: patriarchy is the Biblical model because, by the purposeful Design of our Creator, men are far better equipped to provide family leadership. My own desire to abide by the egalitarianism with which I entered my relationship with Kristin back in my then-still-progressive-Sensitive-New-Guys years led to ongoing family chaos. Only now that I'm standing tall in the role of family head without compromise has my family experienced significant peace. I don't bully. I don't refuse to listen. I don't refrain from seeking input from Kristin. But I also don't condone the bullying of me by my wife or children that I previously condoned in my attempt to keep everything fair and balanced.
Especially given that we have to work within a culture that promotes unworkable notions like egalitarianism, feminism and male surrender, we cannot escape the near-constant propaganda that whitewashes the destructive nature of such philosophies. You therefore offered a false dichotomy between (a) mutual submission and (b) totalitarianism. You and I agree that patriarchy is not synonymous with authoritarianism. We are, as men, required to lead our wives and children, not bully them into submission, but asserting headship and followership is not what leads to totalitarianism. Totalitarianism rushes into the vacuum of chaos, which speaks to your mention of order. The problem is that mutual submission is a mythical construct along the lines of communism or socialism: it has been sought and promoted by many, but no example exists of it ever having been successfully implemented. In the case of mutual submission, I would assert that only the illusion of the submission is ever in play, but what is actually occurring is that the man is submitting to the woman, while the woman is only pretending to submit (deftly pointing out each instance in which she 'submits' by doing what she already wanted to do anyway) and effectively dominates her man without him even being conscious of the ring in his nose. So-called mutual submission also entails the waste-of-time-energy-and-resources practice of reinventing the wheel for each and every necessary decision, coincidentally almost always resulting in the man moving in the woman's direction, further perpetuating the ring in his nose but incrementally shortening the leash.
While you're worrying about male totalitarianism, you are reinforcing female totalitarianism -- and women are far less equipped to provide leadership than are men.
As one non-Torah-Keeper to another, I highly recommend that you stop letting your axe-grinding about TK propel you to be so reactive to everything written or spoken by TK folks, or you're going to be in danger of being left with so little metal left that all you have left is a handle. Your axe is already plenty sharp. Save it for more finely-tuned choices of battles.
Kudos on the next installment, @PeteR. Excellent synthesis of what you've been learning from your research!
Preach it!
I would submit that you are leaving out a whole group of men that fly the mutual submission banner.
I refer to those that rule strongly while claiming to follow ms. “Why, just last Wednesday I let her choose to wear her favorite color underwear when we went shopping for groceries!”
Egalitarianism sounds so noble, as opposed to those strutting, meanie Patriarchs. But the devil is always in the details. How is it actually walked out?
C
Cap
Guest
Thank you for your opinion and I hope you and you family are doing well. And I hope your move was good.
I do agree with you that this mutual submission stuff is really just an illusion, so it makes one wonder, why all the fuss here in this thread in the first place. Except maybe to draw attention to someone?
And as far as your torah comment, I don't think I am doing anything different than what Paul did. I'm really only just supplying another side. That's all. Sorry it offends.
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Thanks, @Cap!
I think you might not have been here when it started. Wilbur and McKee specifically cited one of our own (@PeteR) for ridicule in an extended online video -- and thus the title of this thread. Being human, @PeteR may have multiple motivations for creating his series that counters the claims made in the Wilbur/Mr. Ed video, and this may reflect my own bias, but what I see as the main objective for the videos is to use them as a platform for publicly advancing all of the arguments with which most of us here on Biblical Families are familiar to a much broader audience. Of course, this particular argument is taking place within the context of the Hebrew Roots community, so it will lean in that direction, as it should -- but I'm very impressed by the efficiency with which @PeteR has been effectively addressing the arguments of his detractors while introducing scriptural truths that support the legitimacy of polygyny.
@Keith Martin, thank you for your kind and thoughtful words.
For the record, my motivation primarily is to defend the honor of my King and the Patriarchs. In the process, I have the blessed opportunity to defend every family on this forum and help raise awareness of the righteousness of God as displayed in His authority structure in the family and community. I have tried hard to be non-sectarian so that this series is valuable to all believers, whether TK or not.
What was shocking to me was that alleged Torah teachers would so easily throw the Torah and the Patriarchs under the bus when discussing marriage... and, equally concerning are believers in Biblical marriage who root their practice in the Torah while attacking one of their biggest defenders...
This is a fun/funny battlefield.... but, there is only One I have to concern myself with pleasing.
That said, I've had fun with this series and have had an amazing close circle of encouragers, helpers, editors, prayer warriors, etc... I may be the guy in front of the camera, but I represent a team that is steeled for the mission. What a blessing.
Shalom!
For the record, my motivation primarily is to defend the honor of my King and the Patriarchs. In the process, I have the blessed opportunity to defend every family on this forum and help raise awareness of the righteousness of God as displayed in His authority structure in the family and community. I have tried hard to be non-sectarian so that this series is valuable to all believers, whether TK or not.
What was shocking to me was that alleged Torah teachers would so easily throw the Torah and the Patriarchs under the bus when discussing marriage... and, equally concerning are believers in Biblical marriage who root their practice in the Torah while attacking one of their biggest defenders...
This is a fun/funny battlefield.... but, there is only One I have to concern myself with pleasing.
That said, I've had fun with this series and have had an amazing close circle of encouragers, helpers, editors, prayer warriors, etc... I may be the guy in front of the camera, but I represent a team that is steeled for the mission. What a blessing.
Shalom!
The rules around sexual/marital relationships are established in the book of Leviticus. They are affirmed for believers living after the time of Christ in such places as Acts 15, 1 Cor. 6, 1 Thess. 4, etc. What was written initially in Leviticus cannot be seperated from what is affirmed later because all the detail is in the initial instruction. One of the best proofs for God's acceptance of polygyny is found in Leviticus 18 and people should be aware of that.
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C
Cap
Guest
In light of this discussion, Why the Patriarchal form of family leadership is wrong.
I would like to restate my opinion on the critique of the original video that prompted this thread. To me, mutual submission is a non issue in regards to biblical christian or torah families. To try and claim that these gentlemen in the video are trying to destroy the family with their version of "feminism" is absurd. It appears to me to really be an attack on them because they display a weak version of torah following according to the criticizer and that he would prefer they be more hard-line as himself.
I would like to restate my opinion on the critique of the original video that prompted this thread. To me, mutual submission is a non issue in regards to biblical christian or torah families. To try and claim that these gentlemen in the video are trying to destroy the family with their version of "feminism" is absurd. It appears to me to really be an attack on them because they display a weak version of torah following according to the criticizer and that he would prefer they be more hard-line as himself.
God is hard-lined.
Jesus is hard-lined.
<<He didn’t come to bring peace but a sword. Mt. 10:34>>
The enemy blurs lines.
This culture rejects lines.
Anything goes.
Black or White.
Hot or Cold.
But Lukewarmness will be violently rejected.
Rev. 3:16
I stand ever humbled that the LORD had mercy on me to bless me with a husband who is hard-lined. I would be a selfish, unhappy, emotion-driven *witch* if he hadn’t straightened me out.
And for the record:
As a woman, I have always felt nothing but welcomed and accepted on this entire forum. I love reading the debates and intellectual stimulation that results from hard-lines.
Jesus is hard-lined.
<<He didn’t come to bring peace but a sword. Mt. 10:34>>
The enemy blurs lines.
This culture rejects lines.
Anything goes.
Black or White.
Hot or Cold.
But Lukewarmness will be violently rejected.
Rev. 3:16
I stand ever humbled that the LORD had mercy on me to bless me with a husband who is hard-lined. I would be a selfish, unhappy, emotion-driven *witch* if he hadn’t straightened me out.
And for the record:
As a woman, I have always felt nothing but welcomed and accepted on this entire forum. I love reading the debates and intellectual stimulation that results from hard-lines.
C
Cap
Guest
God is hard-lined.
Jesus is hard-lined.
<<He didn’t come to bring peace but a sword. Mt. 10:34>>
The enemy blurs lines.
This culture rejects lines.
Anything goes.
Black or White.
Hot or Cold.
But Lukewarmness will be violently rejected.
Rev. 3:16
I stand ever humbled that the LORD had mercy on me to bless me with a husband who is hard-lined. I would be a selfish, unhappy, emotion-driven *witch* if he hadn’t straightened me out.
And for the record:
As a woman, I have always felt nothing but welcomed and accepted on this entire forum. I love reading the debates and intellectual stimulation that results from hard-lines.
Ok how does that square with the fact that this forum is suppose to be accepting of people with differing levels of faith and beliefs that follow Jesus.
I am overjoyed that you find the right person that could take care of you.
My wife is more intimidated here and prefers to be more submissive and stay out of the religious things here and would prefer to talk about babies and quilts and cooking, and how to deal with a sister wife. But not a lot of that goes on here.
I'm any event, thank you for your response.
@Cap, you may be failing to make the distinction between acceptance and approval. We are neither compelled to approve of one another nor compelled to seek one another's approval. In fact, Paul admonishes us to actively refrain from seeking one another's approval -- labeling the desire to seek approval from the world the most pernicious lust possible for human beings. We are only to seek approval from our Father and His Son. Period. Even seeking approval from fellow Christians is inappropriate, as is for us men to seek approval even from our wives.
It appears to me that you're unwilling to accept that the Torah Keepers accept you as a Christian or a fellow member of the Body of Christ, but it is also just as clear to me that they have offered this acceptance. When one or more of them write that nothing will ever be enough for you, I fear it is because you are seeking approval rather than acceptance.
I'm not an ecumenicist; anyone who talks with me knows I'm always willing to draw clear distinctions between my beliefs and theirs, and I'm not a fan of watering down those differences. But we are admonished to love everyone with whom we associate. We are clearly associating with each other here, so it is incumbent on me to seek the avenues that lead toward loving. Furthermore, I find that, without having to sacrifice my own core beliefs, I generally tend to learn more from my TK brothers here than I do from anyone else.
I agree with @The Revolting Man. The women too thoroughly rely on men to do the organizing of the forums, just as they tend to rely out on the world on men to organize the world -- but then complain about what and how the men organize. Both debate and community building are critical components of figuring out life on Earth. If one doesn't like a certain aspect of something, complaining about it does nothing to advance anything. Shift one's focus to organize what one does want to support.
Yes, and an occasional reminder from Proverbs 20:3 wouldn't go astray; It is honorable for a man to stop striving, Since any fool can start a quarrel.
Edit: This comment is not directed at anyone but made for any and all to consider. Shalom
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@Keith Martin excellent assessment and clarification. I've come back to read a couple times. Excellent!
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Cap
Guest
I won't be continuing in this thread as I have said all I want to say about it.
People often complain that topic X is not discussed enough here, so they won't come here. If they came and started topic X, it would be discussed. But because they don't start the topic, it isn't. This is circular reasoning.
There aren't enough women on the forum. The solution to this is that more women need to come on the forum. Only the women can implement that solution. We have already rearranged the entire forum to shift all "deeper" discussions into a "deeper discussions" section, to leave the whole first half of the forum open for more casual discussion of the sort women claim they want to have, and not just in the "ladies only" section. So I've done what I can to provide the facility, the women just need to use it.
This is exactly what happens in the ladies chat, every single week. She's most welcome to join us.
And because we talk about that sort of thing in there so much, I don't think it then gets repeated on the forum.
It's not that it doesn't happen. It's that it doesn't happen where you all see it.
We, at this exact moment, are fellowshipping lovingly with our family as they plunk down copious amounts of bacon right under our noses.
As I remember the retreats are no different. We also just attended a wedding where the bride had 2 moms. Good food, music, dancing. We had a great time.
Interactions via text/internet seem to always be fraught with misunderstandings that probably don’t reflect real life.