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I personally love the 10 Suggestions...
It seems that the Son of God came to correct the 10 Interpretations .
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Torah vs Grace?
- Thread starter Pacman
- Start date
It seems that the Son of God came to correct the 10 Interpretations .
Interesting prospective, the New Covenant is a "do over".
Kinda makes the statement, "it is finished" pointless, but that's just me.
(You knew I couldn't resist)
I was also wondering, Is this a blonde joke really?
What exactly was finished at the Cross. Not all things, Heaven and earth are still here. The Prophecies in Revelation have yet to be fulfilled. What does the Messianic prophecies say would be finished? His work as the Prophet. His work as the High Preist. He still has to Reign as our physical King. Also its funny no prophecy says the law will be done away with other than possibly Yeshuas when ALL THINGS are complete, depending if your eiesgenisis shows that. Actually they that say we will keep the law.
Face it, the Law is only convenient when it justifies something like plural marriage. When it is inconvenient, like regarding that ham sammich, it must be disregarded.
The inconsistency of embracing what one wants while ignoring what one doesn't is the epitome of 'lukewarm. '
The inconsistency of embracing what one wants while ignoring what one doesn't is the epitome of 'lukewarm. '
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I have no idea why this is so hard. I know you have read this. Maybe read it slowly.
Galatians 3
Faith or Works of the Law
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a 4Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” c
7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” e 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” f 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” g 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” h 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The Law and the Promise
15Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” i meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
(And if you can really understand what is being said here, the New Covenant (Grace/Faith) is really the First Covenant, before the Old Covenant (Law).)
19Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Children of God
23Before the coming of this faith, j we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (NOT THE LAW)
(The last part is the uniting of the two houses under Christ. )
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Or circumcision.
hmmm, circumcision or a ham sammy, which Law do I choose to break. Never mind, at that point I have broken them all and need forgiveness.
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Now if only we could figure out what the "it" is that he was talking about... must have been His father's rules.
Yeah, we'll just go with that. Let's "sin that grace may abound" now.
By the way, greetings from the future, it's 2020 here. They lit up the horizon everywhere we could see outside, simply amazing. Pinoys love them some fireworks!
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Your argument is with Paul not me. I just put down what he said. It seems to me you are twisting his words.
It's weakness to run to Paul's multicultural letters when one can not find justification from the gospels. I've answered you concerning the verses you quoted in the past so I'm not going to do it now again. It takes a LOT of work to understand Paul, a LOT.
I would highly recommend some Peter though:
"as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them [Paul's letters] that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability." 2 Peter 3:16-17 ESV
Amazing, even then Peter was warning people to not misread / twist Paul and be carried away in lawlessness.
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I think all of the New Testament writers clearly define what 'it' is. It seems to me that Old Testament worshipers have a hard time understanding what 'it' is.
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Same goes for you too my friend, "It takes a LOT of work to understand Paul, a LOT. "
But. what I think it takes is the Holy Spirit. If there is anyone else who thinks I am wrong, speak up, so I will know if I am hearing correctly.
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ok in Love I'll clarify, If there is any Christians, Abraham's children, who think I am wrong, speak up, so I will know if I am hearing correctly.
I actually think that those who follow Torah have a really hard time with Paul and that is why he is so hard for them to understand.
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I love Paul; he kept our Laws and even our customs throughout his ministry as mentioned in acts; however, I don't' think you've put in the hard work required to understand Paul and this is why you evaded the Apostle Peter's warning about people twisting and misunderstanding Paul to support Lawlessness.
You simply sidestepped my point with a "well my emotions don't feel like addressing that, let's just say 'holy spirit'". If your point were valid (to just call Espiritus Sanctus ad naueum then Peter would have just written, "let the spirit guide you when you read Paul, no need to 'be careful'".
Appeal to the spirit when you don't see a way out, that's not a discussion, it's a cop-out so I won't follow you down that path; my time is worth more than that.
(your appeal to "fellow Christians", distasteful as it was, also indicates to me you have no real interest in addressing these issues).
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Only framed my statement the way I interpret Paul's comments on the matter. But, you assume correctly, that I am not really interested in pursing this never ending discussion. Just wanted to keep sides even since no one else cares to for future readers. Besides, as these things go forward I'm the one who gets called out and no one else does. Can't figure that one out though.
And by the way, your inference that I am lawless, defiled temple, and unintelligent, was distasteful to me first. You're missing the fireworks.
exactly
The thread is titled "Torah vs. Grace" and it's in the Messianic / Hebrew Roots section; so if you're not interested why stir the pot over here in this specific thread? " the lady doth protest too much, methinks."
It's the Messianic / Hebrew Roots section brother; future readers / posters over here typically are gonna be Law-loving types. No need to inject controversy needlessly which "you aren't really interested in doing."
Again, we're in the Messianic section, so you know what "lawless means" ... it means "torahlessness" and since you just mentioned eating pork a few posts prior and I'm familiar with your views on the Law of Gd I don't think that was much of a stretch to insinuate "Torah-lessness" on your part. It wasn't a veiled insult; it was a fact which you have stated; I'm only taking you at your word here.
defiled temple-I'm using Torah definitions here; slaughtering a pig on the altar in the Temple of Gd caused it's defilement. Words have meanings and that's what it means to defile the temple (other things get the job done too; watching porno, idol worship, etc. none of which I am implying you do but by your own admission you're chomping the toevah "abomination meat" come now, let's not be offended.
I do not think you are unintelligent; if I implied that I apologize brother. What I said was I do not think you have done the hard work that's necessary to study Paul and as such I didn't want to waste time on that path when we could just agree to quote the gospels or better yet the Messiah Himself.
Didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I'll do my best to be more gentle in our future interactions, bliy neder.
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Funny, you have no issue bringing your understanding to non torah related threads and categories.
Interesting thing I Have noticed, you don't come around here much lately, but when you do it its always an argument about something you don't like.
I am curious how do you expect to get a full understanding of Torah and Grace if you are only interested in the Torah side.
You don't hurt my feelings at all. And I used my terms, Christians, Abraham's children, based on Paul's understanding of who Gentiles were. And actually, really what we think of each other really doesn't matter, it's what God thinks. And if you could see what Paul was doing, you would see that he was trying to tear down the wall that rabbinical tradition built up, and from my point of view, is still being constructed by those who force others to see things their way when it comes to the Law, so that we could all come together under Christ and see things the way Paul tried to explain to the Galatians, which does seem to apply here.
Interesting thing I Have noticed, you don't come around here much lately, but when you do it its always an argument about something you don't like.
I am curious how do you expect to get a full understanding of Torah and Grace if you are only interested in the Torah side.
You don't hurt my feelings at all. And I used my terms, Christians, Abraham's children, based on Paul's understanding of who Gentiles were. And actually, really what we think of each other really doesn't matter, it's what God thinks. And if you could see what Paul was doing, you would see that he was trying to tear down the wall that rabbinical tradition built up, and from my point of view, is still being constructed by those who force others to see things their way when it comes to the Law, so that we could all come together under Christ and see things the way Paul tried to explain to the Galatians, which does seem to apply here.
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. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
No where did he say, AND KEEP THE LAW.
And not directed at you @Pacman, but I have to keep saying, to understand Grace you have to understand the Law. You can't understand the forgiveness the officer gave you in not giving you the ticket if you don't understand the law and the consequence for it. The problem with your message is that you can never pay the penalty for the sin you committed and there is no do over, just have faith that your penalty has been paid. Try not to go over the speed limit again, but more than likely you will. And God will forgive again. It's called Love.
h 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
I think that it is really bothersome, that the Gentiles have received the Spirit beyond the Law, and those who think its in the Law are missing the point and don't like it.
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"Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete.
For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens."-Yeshua
"“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"-Yeshua
So.....Your argument is not with us but with Yeshua.
Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is everlasting and your law is true.
John 14:6 Yeshua answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Psalm 119:159 Consider how I love Your precepts, O LORD; give me life according to Your loving devotion.
160 Your word is the essence of truth, and all Your righteous judgments endure.
Deuteronomy 4:8
And what nation is so great as to have righteous statutes and ordinances like this entire law I set before you today?
Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is trustworthy, making wise the simple.
Psalm 111:8
They are upheld forever and ever, enacted in truth and uprightness.
Psalm 110:89
Your word, O LORD, is everlasting; it is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your law is true.
Psalm 119:152
Long ago I learned from Your testimonies that You have established them forever.
It seems Your argument is with King David as well and God is the one who said His laws are Olam -forever- so your argument is with Him as well.
Its like we don't even read the same book.
24“And I shall take you from among the nations, and I shall gather you out of all lands, and I shall bring you into your own land.
25“And I shall sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean – from all your filthiness and from all your idols I cleanse you.
26“And I shall give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. And I shall take the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I shall give you a heart of flesh,
27and put My Spirit within you. And I shall cause you to walk in My laws and guard My right-rulings and shall do them.
So how about that, If you have His spirit you will keep His Laws and rulings. That's the Point you keep trying to ignore. I'm tired of this. Its obvious were reading from different books.
Isaiah 5:24
Therefore, as a tongue of fire consumes stubble And dry grass collapses into the flame, So their root will become like rot and their blossom blow away as dust; For they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Jeremiah 6:10
To whom shall I speak and give warning That they may hear? Behold, their ears are closed And they cannot listen Behold, the word of the LORD has become a reproach to them; They have no delight in it.
Zechariah 7:12
"They made their hearts like flint so that they could not hear the law and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets; therefore great wrath came from the LORD of hosts.
Titus 3:3
For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
Psalm 81:16
Those who hate the LORD would feign obedience, and their doom would last forever.
For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens."-Yeshua
"“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"-Yeshua
So.....Your argument is not with us but with Yeshua.
If your interpretation of Paul's words contradict Yeshua and the Prophecies about how the Gentiles will be justified by faith, grafting into Ysra'el which is redeemed through the Messiah, Ysra'el Gods nation that He gave His Laws to so that we know what is expected of a citizen, with a circumcised Heart and His Spirit that obeys His Laws Ezekiel 36:26. Then it appears to me that you are twisting his words.
Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is everlasting and your law is true.
John 14:6 Yeshua answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Psalm 119:159 Consider how I love Your precepts, O LORD; give me life according to Your loving devotion.
160 Your word is the essence of truth, and all Your righteous judgments endure.
Deuteronomy 4:8
And what nation is so great as to have righteous statutes and ordinances like this entire law I set before you today?
Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is trustworthy, making wise the simple.
Psalm 111:8
They are upheld forever and ever, enacted in truth and uprightness.
Psalm 110:89
Your word, O LORD, is everlasting; it is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your law is true.
Psalm 119:152
Long ago I learned from Your testimonies that You have established them forever.
It seems Your argument is with King David as well and God is the one who said His laws are Olam -forever- so your argument is with Him as well.
Its like we don't even read the same book.
Ezekiel 36:26
24“And I shall take you from among the nations, and I shall gather you out of all lands, and I shall bring you into your own land.
25“And I shall sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean – from all your filthiness and from all your idols I cleanse you.
26“And I shall give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. And I shall take the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I shall give you a heart of flesh,
27and put My Spirit within you. And I shall cause you to walk in My laws and guard My right-rulings and shall do them.
So how about that, If you have His spirit you will keep His Laws and rulings. That's the Point you keep trying to ignore. I'm tired of this. Its obvious were reading from different books.
Isaiah 5:24
Therefore, as a tongue of fire consumes stubble And dry grass collapses into the flame, So their root will become like rot and their blossom blow away as dust; For they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Jeremiah 6:10
To whom shall I speak and give warning That they may hear? Behold, their ears are closed And they cannot listen Behold, the word of the LORD has become a reproach to them; They have no delight in it.
Zechariah 7:12
"They made their hearts like flint so that they could not hear the law and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets; therefore great wrath came from the LORD of hosts.
Titus 3:3
For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
Psalm 81:16
Those who hate the LORD would feign obedience, and their doom would last forever.