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Why Jews don't say the sacred name of G-d & Maybe nobody should

Kevin said:
Not an anti Jewish topic I know many who oppose such traditions being imposed on them. I was showing that it's the traditions such as these that I'm in opposition to.
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Well above you mentioned how you're now "out" and tired of Romani and Jewish traditions, then you offered up these textbook Hebrew Roots list of silly Jewish traditions.
I have NEVER met a rabbi who said we should follow the one foot at a time thing; not saying they aren't out there.
I think you are inadvertently doing more harm than help by nit-picking out Judaism's more silly traditions in a forum where Jewish tradition is generally under attack already/ treated with great suspicion anyway (I'm the solo defender of such things here); though I'm not sure it's such a bad thing to give young boys precise instruction on how to wake up in the morning and attack their day (right foot first!) since they are also taught it's the rabbi's teaching, not Torah sh'bichtav.

The very fact that there are many Jews who find the little OCD issues like your foot-first example is why we have movements like the Modern Orthodox movement (blue-jeans wearing Jews like Ben Shapiro).
On a side note: I've heard more about the foot-first, hand washing, etc. visiting Hebrew Roots congregations than I ever heard them talked about at synagogues!

Thanks for clarifying that you are not opposed to most of the Jewish traditions since it sure came off that way (maybe I was too sleepy or my mind was just like "why's he talking about these things and bashing Talmud, regretting his time spent studying when he loved it before?" or I was confused by your generalization "the traditions of men" referencing Jewish traditions; it was not clear to me you only meant the handful of oddball ones you called out.)

Anyway, can you please consider that maybe the thread about the Sacred Name is not the place to complain about which shoes Jews put on first in the morning... eh? [yes, I'm warming up to Canada lately...]

shalom
 
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Interesting, you have piqued my curiosity and I needed to research my understanding.
Yeshua used the kingdom of heaven is like unto (or a variation) 8 times, all of them in Mathew for some reason. I would totally accept that phrase as indicating that he was making a comparison with a made-up event.
 
IshChayil said:
Or if folks wouldn't misrepresent what happened.
Like Verify's intentional dragging the Name in the mud just to be provocative in this forum AFTER the thread was already moved over here.

quite a nasty thing to do as recognized by others.

I know you don't see it this way; that's fine. But that's why it hasn't fizzled out so easily.
This post doesn't require a response Sam so you can let it fizzle out now; I'm not holding my breath for any retraction/apology from Verify so I'll stop writing about it now and it can fizzle out like you want.
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Much thanks to the other mods and Following Him for addressing this in my absence and keeping things floating.
Ive been insanely busy the last couple of weeks and havent had time to do more than think wistfully about the forum and interacting here. I wasn’t offended or hurt or anything like that by others comments, just busier than I know what to do with, even before this conversation started.

For the record, and to reply to both @Pacman and @IshChayil.

Both of you are out of your gourds if you think that my response was anything more than exactly what it was. It was a statement saying that I don’t care if anyone utilizes any of the names of God in written or spoken form. (The one caveat that I will make is in a pejorative). It was not intended to offend, nor blaspheme.

For the record, Ish, you initiated your request outside the “sanctuary” of the Hebrew Roots/Messianic forum and then after offending others outside, requested that it be brought back over here, (which I did, as it should have been) but then tried to claim additional offense that the Name had been used on a thread that you started etc.

In my opinion, YOU opened this thread up to anyone using any form of the Name with your request that the conversation be brought back here. IF you don’t like others using it here in the future, don’t blame anybody else but your own self and your infantile transparent attempt to manipulate others.

So, in the future, my advice to anyone having to deal with one of Ish’s requests that seem a bit overbearing, just respond with a nice, “No, thanks.” Any additional responses will be treated as harassment and the appropriate steps will be taken.
 
So far as I know parables are thought of like fables (i.e. fictional story to teach truths, except that fables use animals). They are archetypal stories that aren't literal events, but illustrate truths. Christ may not have known a shepherd who left his flock to find a lost sheep, but every shepherd there did. Christ may not have watched a farmer sow a crop and then seen what happened on different soils. But all the farmers had seen it. He wasn't telling a story about what happened to farmer Titus Maximus's 32 AD wheat crop. He was using generic truths to teach spiritual truths. Who here hasn't dropped a coin on the floor and hunted around for it? When he explained the meaning of the parable of the sower to the Apostles he didn't tell them the sowers name, he said what spiritual truths the events and things represented.

But when Christ told a story about a man by name, such as Abraham and Lazarus in the Rich man and Lazarus story, that is thought by many to be a literally true story. This is an important distinction because of Christ it is said "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in His mouth".

That is why equating what Christ did with parables with those who knowingly make up stories about named figures in history is objectionable to Christians.
 
Shalom, IshChayil,
I found your post quite interesting and quite unexpected on a site like this.

I have a different take on the issue. And, unlike the Mr "Nobody" you refered to, I am 100% positive as to what the Name is. I've known it for almost forty years. Came across it seredipitously while reading Ecclesiastes in Hebrew one day.

Now before you go getting all worked up about how a nobody like me (a plumber by trade) can say something that outrageous, let me just ask you to consider the evidence. I have a YouTube channel:
timesandappointedtimes
I have three PPT presentations there. The first one got a visual upgrade recently. I would ask you to watch it and get back with me. I'd love to have an intelligent conversation with you about it.

I have submitted the information in document form to Tim Hegg, Nehemia Gordon, and Jim Staley. Gordon and Staley ignored me. Mr. Hegg was the only one with the decency to at least dialog with me. I still have the emails. At the end of the day Mr. Hegg thought himself more the scholar than William Gesenius.

Shalom,

Michael
 
Michael McHugh said:
...Now before you go getting all worked up about how a nobody like me (a plumber by trade) can say something that outrageous, let me just ask you to consider the evidence. I have a YouTube channel:
timesandappointedtimes
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Shalom Michael,
thanks for writing. Let's please refrain from assumptions that I care about a man's trade; that's a veiled ad hominem some have used to try to make my positions less tasteful. I don't know who "mr. Nobody" is to whom you refer but it may be some younger fella in here who intentionally was using the name in our dialogue with me in this thread while he didn't usually use it ion this site; If you happen to share the same profession as that guy I don't see how that adds anything to this discussion. Plumbers can be Hebrew scholars if that's where they spend their free time.
Many of our sages had day jobs.

I'm happy to check out your video, please P.M. me the exact link and I'll take a look. First please verify though that your method of discovering the name was not simply sounding it out the way it seems to be written in the q'tiv traditional markings.

Michael McHugh said:
.
I have submitted the information in document form to Tim Hegg, Nehemia Gordon, and Jim Staley. Gordon and Staley ignored me. Mr. Hegg was the only one with the decency to at least dialog with me. I still have the emails. At the end of the day Mr. Hegg thought himself more the scholar than William Gesenius.
Michael
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In fairness to Staley, I've been in contact with his wife as he is in prison now and is not allowed to receive emails from more than the approved people on his list. Normally I would not propagate information about a teacher being in prison as it may be lashon hara but in this case I'm defending him as not having ignored your emails intentionally. WHile I don't like that Staley says the name in his teachings, I think we should all understand that a secular government conviction by a juror of non-peers, does not mean a man has sinned before the L-rd.
Gordon is a charlaton who plays off Hebrew roots folks for money seizing on their dislike of rabbinic Judaism; he also never responded to any of my messages either.
He doesn't ever put himself in a venue where he can be challenged. The most recent gibberish of his someone sent me was some Priest's Hebrew assignment homework from Hebrew class he found "Oh my gosh unfiled in the Vatican archives!" I could even see the elementary Hebrew writing mistakes that were in this "amazing find" clearly a priest-in-training's homework. Gordon either had the Hebrew knowledge to recognize it as well and just wanted to continue scamming people, or he didn't know, in which case his biblical Hebrew is even worse than I thought it is.

Thanks for joining in the discussion Michael!
 
IshChayil said:
Shalom Michael,
thanks for writing. Let's please refrain from assumptions that I care about a man's trade; that's a veiled ad hominem some have used to try to make my positions less tasteful. I don't know who "mr. Nobody" is to whom you refer but it may be some younger fella in here who intentionally was using the name in our dialogue with me in this thread while he didn't usually use it ion this site; If you happen to share the same profession as that guy I don't see how that adds anything to this discussion. Plumbers can be Hebrew scholars if that's where they spend their free time.
Many of our sages had day jobs.

I'm happy to check out your video, please P.M. me the exact link and I'll take a look. First please verify though that your method of discovering the name was not simply sounding it out the way it seems to be written in the q'tiv traditional markings.


In fairness to Staley, I've been in contact with his wife as he is in prison now and is not allowed to receive emails from more than the approved people on his list. Normally I would not propagate information about a teacher being in prison as it may be lashon hara but in this case I'm defending him as not having ignored your emails intentionally. WHile I don't like that Staley says the name in his teachings, I think we should all understand that a secular government conviction by a juror of non-peers, does not mean a man has sinned before the L-rd.
Gordon is a charlaton who plays off Hebrew roots folks for money seizing on their dislike of rabbinic Judaism; he also never responded to any of my messages either.
He doesn't ever put himself in a venue where he can be challenged. The most recent gibberish of his someone sent me was some Priest's Hebrew assignment homework from Hebrew class he found "Oh my gosh unfiled in the Vatican archives!" I could even see the elementary Hebrew writing mistakes that were in this "amazing find" clearly a priest-in-training's homework. Gordon either had the Hebrew knowledge to recognize it as well and just wanted to continue scamming people, or he didn't know, in which case his biblical Hebrew is even worse than I thought it is.

Thanks for joining in the discussion Michael!
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Shalom, Sir,
First, I'm sorry that I'm just now seeing this. I hope I can answer all your questions.

1) Mr. Nobody
You said that "Nobody" actually knew the name. I was not referring to anyone in particular. Just that I, myself am a nobody, that is, not known, not important to anyone outside my little circle of influence, and a plumber (nothing romantic about that). I was just trying to convey that unimportant me is sure I know the Name. I came across it seredipitously one day many years ago while reading Ecclesiastes in Hebrew.
I'm sorry if I communicated anything at all about anybody on this site. I assure you that was not my intent.

2) No, I don't believe we can know the Name by the vowels the scribes put within it. I go through that info in my presentations. It has to do with the form of the verb "to be" in Ecc. 11:3 and how the Name looks at the end of one particular name - Michaiah.

3) The links to those presentations are:

4) I sent a hard copy paper to Mr. Staley long before he went to prison. I don't remember just when. He chose not to respond.

5) I agree with you on Gordon. I heard him in person twice when he was speaking in Branson, MO. He does not like questions and is ill prepared to answer the hard ones I wanted to ask him. He too ignored the info in the hard copy I sent him before I ever heard him actually speak I person. He is in my estimation a master of disinformation.
Shalom!
 
Honestly my advice to all has been to avoid any teacher that claims they know for sure what the correct pronunciation of his name is. I'm not singling you out @Michael McHugh I have been giving that advice for quite a while now. I don't believe it's possible to be absolutely certain about the name. I believe I know it as well but by no means am I completely sure...
 
Michael McHugh said:
Shalom, Sir,
First, I'm sorry that I'm just now seeing this. I hope I can answer all your questions.

1) Mr. Nobody
You said that "Nobody" actually knew the name. I was not referring to anyone in particular. Just that I, myself am a nobody, that is, not known, not important to anyone outside my little circle of influence, and a plumber (nothing romantic about that). I was just trying to convey that unimportant me is sure I know the Name. I came across it seredipitously one day many years ago while reading Ecclesiastes in Hebrew.
I'm sorry if I communicated anything at all about anybody on this site. I assure you that was not my intent.

2) No, I don't believe we can know the Name by the vowels the scribes put within it. I go through that info in my presentations. It has to do with the form of the verb "to be" in Ecc. 11:3 and how the Name looks at the end of one particular name - Michaiah.

3) The links to those presentations are:

4) I sent a hard copy paper to Mr. Staley long before he went to prison. I don't remember just when. He chose not to respond.

5) I agree with you on Gordon. I heard him in person twice when he was speaking in Branson, MO. He does not like questions and is ill prepared to answer the hard ones I wanted to ask him. He too ignored the info in the hard copy I sent him before I ever heard him actually speak I person. He is in my estimation a master of disinformation.
Shalom!
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That was interesting and quite thought provoking. I’ll have to think on this a bit more before commenting.

I did find it thought provoking regarding the apparently intentional obfuscation of the name by the scribes doing the pointing as that appears to corroborate a separate study I’ve been doing on the Masoretics.

Im kinda curious what your thoughts are or what you’ve found in your studies on the origin of “the unmentionable name”?
 
I haven't really looked into the origins of it. I've never come across anything that even hints at the origins. Hmmm... What studies have you done on the Masoretes?
 
Basically, in a nutshell, once upon a time, His people knew and spoke His name with great respect and frequency. And then, someone got the idea that it needed to be hidden from the uninitiated, and here we are today. My studies seem to be indicating that those “someone’s” were the Masoretics or their immediate predecessors.
 
So fascinating to me that some of the many people who decided to keep the name hidden were the new testament authors.
So awesome and astounding!
Even Yeshua himself is not recorded even saying the Name in prayer but instead teaches us to say "Abba."

You guys ever seen those WWJD bracelets?
He'd say "Abba" not the name publicly when praying b/c he was a good Jew, obedient to the batei din. I think I'll stick to his lesson on how to refer to the father and keep with the tradition as reinforced by ALL of the New Testament writers. They said Abba or Adonai; King James got it right when they wrote "LORD."
Good enough for the Messiah, good enough for me....
 
IshChayil said:
So fascinating to me that some of the many people who decided to keep the name hidden were the new testament authors.
So awesome and astounding!
Even Yeshua himself is not recorded even saying the Name in prayer but instead teaches us to say "Abba."

You guys ever seen those WWJD bracelets?
He'd say "Abba" not the name publicly when praying b/c he was a good Jew, obedient to the batei din. I think I'll stick to his lesson on how to refer to the father and keep with the tradition as reinforced by ALL of the New Testament writers. They said Abba or Adonai;
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Does this hold true in the Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew? I'm not arguing. That's a real question...
 
Pacman said:
Does this hold true in the Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew? I'm not arguing. That's a real question...
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We don't know since it did not survive. We only have accounts of Jerome, Eusebius and someone else mentioning it as a primary source document.

BTW: Happy Passover overyone!
 
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