A dating daughter is a father's failure

[southernphotini]

She fits this discussion in a number of ways: She was no longer a virgin, there's no reference to her [earthly] father's wishes, but she clearly had a CHOICE. And she made it, at risk to her very life. I find that inspiring. AND - YHVH protected her. And - arguably, rewarded her, too!

Tamar is declared righteous in scripture. The only woman named in Christ’s lineage who isn’t declared righteous is Bathsheba, but she’s also the only one who isn’t described as having agency. Still, she sat in a place of honor at Solomon’s right hand.

 

[NVIII]

Tamar is declared righteous in scripture.

Judah declared that she was more righteous than he. Is that what you mean, or is there another place?

That "more righteous than I" is a way of speaking in admitting fault. Here is a good breakdown of that sense: https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/13027/why-is-tamar-more-righteous-than-judah

Why was he at fault? I suspect it was the same as Onan, refusing to do his duty, (Judah's duty at that point was to place her under his youngest son). Which, once again, begs the question: are our daughters "more righteous than we" when they are forced to make their own way when we fail our duty to them to arrange their marriage? Or is it just a Jewish thing, so to speak, and us gentiles are off the hook?

I'm ok with it falling under the same group as circumcision and eating pigs. So long as that's where it belongs.

 

[steve]

Or is it just a Jewish thing, so to speak, and us gentiles are off the hook?

I'm ok with it falling under the same group as circumcision and eating pigs. So long as that's where it belongs.

Are those two statements connected?

Run for cover!
Incoming!

 

[Mark C]

Is this the illustration you think it is?

No.

 

[southernphotini]

I'm ok with it falling under the same group as circumcision and eating pigs. So long as that's where it belongs.

I think it’s in the same category as Psalm 113. God cares about justice for women. Rahab and Ruth are other examples of that.

I don’t think justice for women goes out if style.

 

[Mark C]

I don’t think justice for women goes out if style.

Actually, justice for EVERYONE has "gone out of style." It just hasn't gone out of His Word.

And Jefferson was right, "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."

 

[rockfox]

No father can kill daughter due to disobedience.

Not directly no. Directly. You might want to drop the humanist philosophy and read the Bible. Got any Biblical examples for your contention?

Obviously, for a child, "honour your parents" basically translates to "obey your parents" in practical terms. And Ephesians 6:1 specifically says "child" - not "son" or "daughter" (which apply throughout life), the word fundamentally means somebody dependent on the parent, a young child. Literally Paul is saying that while young and dependant upon your parents (while a child) you must obey your parents. Paul is not telling adults to obey their parents (even if that is true, this verse does not say it).

A marriageable aged daughter is not a child. Yet we see in both the Old and New Testament that the daughter is to obey the father in the matter of marriage. She is still under the fathers authority until she marries and I see nothing in the Bible to suggest otherwise.

 

[DawoodSaar]

Let's not mention how Jephthah makes the Hebrews 11 hall of heroes as a father...

 

[bro. Dexter for YAH]

I agree with this.

Maybe, but that would depend on one's definition of "courtship". My wife and I were "courting" before our engagement. And it was not dating, nor frivolous, or marked by immorality.

I like a man who's willing to stand up front and get punched in the face with a grin on.

I agree in principle, in practice that is almost impossible in this day and age unless the father is very intentional to build the foundations for that paradigm from her birth through her youth.

100% agreed

I'll present a brief version of how things went with me and the wife of my youth.
I was 18, she was 9 when our families became friends. I didn't know she existed, she thought I was "soooo handsome".
Fast forward, I was 24, she was 15. And both sets of parents thought we would be good matches for each other. They subtly dropped hints and asked what we thought. We were both horrified to even consider the other due to the respective ages. But nevertheless we both paid more attention to the other out of morbid curiosity for why our parents would say something so crazy. Bear in mind neither of us knew anything about what the other had been told or was thinking.

I was interested in another young woman at the time, she was in her twenties.

Through mutual interests, I became friends with her parents and spent a lot of time with them discussing life, scripture, the world, homesteading, and helping them with projects at their place. Catie was in full control and responsibility over the kitchen at this time and was an AMAZING cook at 15. So I noticed that much but didn't want to wait another 3+ years to even think about dating her, plus I was interested in someone else so no need to think about it much.
Fast forward almost a year and she was still 15, about to turn 16 and the thing with the other woman fell through. That day I had this inexplicable need for some southern cooking. (I was missing her cooking something fierce)

So after finishing that job in Oklahoma, I went home and straight to her parent's house that evening to visit with her parents. Not to eat supper with them. Of course they invited me to eat and I got that itch scratched and it was sooooo good.

I think that was the day I decided... "Well I'd waited that long to get married, what was another 4 years?"

So I started paying more attention, and being more charming. Then when she was 16, after much prayer and permission from her parents. Asked to court her. Dating with intent, courtship, whatever you want to call it. The only physical touching allowed was holding hands and a hug goodbye. My own standards were that there was to be no kissing until the wedding ceremony. She prevailed upon me to bend on that rule because she didn't want her first kiss to be in public like that. So we decided no kissing until betrothal/engagement.

In our state it is legal for a 17 year old to marry with parental consent. So we did! And 13 years later we are still blissfully married and loving each other more every day. 3 wonderful sons and two thriving businesses.

Call that courtship, call it arranged marriage. Or something in-between. But we both had agency in the decision, and both sets of parents came up with the idea in the first place and gave their full and heartfelt endorsement of the match from before day 1.

Beautiful, every bit of it.

I believe this represents what I would call a rather ideal situation for arranging a marriage. The reality is forcing a daughter to marry a particular man is a terrible idea. But telling her who you think is a good fit, or the man you think would be a good husband for her, is a great idea. Giving her room to choose. If it doesn't work out, life goes on.

You and your ishah had a wonderful suggestion and the opportunity to try it for yourselves, and it worked out. Because you both were in agreement and no one forced anything on anyone.

I have no biological children, but I do hope Yah has some in store for me. From day 1 I want to instill submission and covering into my daughters. Because I want them to trust their father enough to find them a good husband. That they would respect my judgment enough to want to marry the man I select for them. They can certainly decline, but I want to give them wisdom so that if they do decline, its not over something frivolous and shortsighted.

Thank you for sharing bro @NickF

 

[bro. Dexter for YAH]

No way.

There is possibly that some people will decide that they, as fathers, have 100% right to make irreversible decision with potentially very damaging consequences for affected person without any input of affected person. And they with claim this is because Bible claims they know better. Similar crap with covid vaccine because experts know better that affected person. And have more interest that affected person in making right decision.

If father has right of final decision then only question remanining is how much force to use (what is enforcement mechanism of his court?). Because if daughter refuses father's decision, how will he move her in desired direction? Just talks, or maybe grounding? Or good beating? Situation can easily escalate in child abuse.

I'm certain people here are trying their best to be good parents, but crappy people truly exist. And this idea provides moral justification and way to abuse their children more.

No, I'm not overreacting because there are real dangers and this idea can finish wrong.

I think there's no way to force a daughter to marry. Seems to me worst case if she refuses to marry who a father chooses, or she chooses someone else, she'll just run away with them and there will be a broken father/daughter relationship. Not saying i approve of that, just looking at what a fall out looks like.

I have no daughters but if some day I do, I'd be more disappointed at her choosing a man I disapprove than her not consenting to a man I choose. Because in case 2, another man can be found who meets my standards. In case one if she goes thru with it, it can't be reversed. And I would see that as a great dishonor to me as her father. Which won't end well.

These things cannot be perfect. But for those of us seeking to implement a more biblical way of family building well into the future, these are the right conversations to be having.

 

[bro. Dexter for YAH]

Here we go again.

If we keep using correct rules of logic, conclusion must be true. Ideally, starting point is axiom whose refutation proves axiom or axiom which is obviously true.

I can start with axiom that parents influence marriage decisions of their children. This isn't case when parents are dead or parents/children don't speak. I won't take such cases in consideration since they aren't topic. If parents influence their children, then key question is how much influence is proper? Only disagreements possible here is how much is proper.

Another question which needs answer is who is final decision maker? In current culture it is daughter, but author of thread proposes (@NVIII ) that father is final decision maker. OK, now it is time to consider implications what will happen when father is final decision maker.

Ludwig von Mises was able prove that socialism doesn't work doing something obvious. Then in 1910s, 1920s economists with social leaning have claimed that in centrally planned economy everything will be wonderful, scarcity will disappear etc... What is important is that they have never mentioned how socialist economy will actually work. Mises has actually checked mechanisms how socialist economy will work and he has found it wanting.

Let's check actually mechanism of father being final decision maker. Time for some game theory.

If father and daughter agree, no problem. But what if they disagree? That is key question.

If there is no punishment for daughter, then in practice, father isn't final decision maker. It is same situation as unenforced law. It is toothless order. So in this situation, daughter is final decision maker. So father must punish his daughter enough for her to change her mind in other to stay final decision maker. So, what is proper punishment? Is it obvious that punishment can go into what is abuse. But any father who believes that he is final decision maker must answer this question: How to get daughter to accept man which she doesn't want. GO guys I'm truly interested in your answer. This is real possible situation.

There is assumption hidden in previous paragraph. Father can choose any man according to his will. Possible change is to give veto power to daughter. Father will choose according to his will any man not vetoed by daughter. But then he can't choose any man. Is that OK? What if daughter vetoes best choice according to father? What if daughter vetoes anyone till only remaining is what daughter originally wanted? In this case father practically stops being final decision maker.

People of this forum, it is time to leave proclamations and get in real world. It is time to think how this will really work in real world and find workable solution before somebody reading this forum destroys his daughter's life with some avoidable idiocy.

EDIT: Grammar correct, easier to read.

As a father is the final decision maker advocate, I approach this with the understanding in all things we must use wisdom. I will not force a man on my unwilling daughter. He may well be the best possible husband for her, but if she don't want him she's not going to be the best wife for HIM.

I won't punish her for declining him, which is why I'll start with multiple possible candidates, also considering her personality etc. The choice i make does not overlook what she likes.

We must assume I raised her to be obedient and submissive, preparing her for her role as a wife by teaching her those qualities in relation to her father since I'm her first covering.

I get the final say, but that is only operative if she submits to my headship. That comes down to me either selecting a man that she embraces marrying, or if she suggests a man, I evaluate and approve. If she goes against me to marry a man I disapprove, she dishonors me. And her "punishment" is our relationship will be very strained from then on, because i no longer have an honorable daughter. What does that fallout look like in play? Its hard for me to see us talking at that point, because I wouldn't trust her and her rebellion is shameful in my book. Its a lifelong, life altering decision. And I'm inclined to keep my distance if she chooses foolishly. If she cannot honor me, what kind of relationship do we really have?

So some would say she has the final say. I say its her life, and just as the Father doesn't force what's best on me, I won't force what's best on her. She gets to live her life, whether I agree or not.

 

[bro. Dexter for YAH]

How far, exactly, goes father's authority? And what are going to do for situation where Lord doesn't provide clear instruction (disobedient daughter -- are you OK with spanking 20 year daughter?) ?

I consider the following to be wise biblical instruction in matters such as these. Granted, it doesn't say what to do if she rebels and chooses a bad husband. But it does say give her to a man of understanding, which implies that you either select or approve who she marries. And I take it that if she will not obey, you couldn't possibly be the one to give her to a horrible man, else you be a terrible father. In that case she'd have to give herself, since I wouldn't be involved.

Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 7:23-25 KJV

23

Hast thou children? instruct them, and bow down their neck from their youth.
24

Hast thou daughters? have a care of their body, and shew not thyself cheerful toward them.
25

Marry thy daughter, and so shalt thou have performed a weighty matter: but give her to a man of understanding.

Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 26: 10-12 KJV

10

If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself through overmuch liberty.
11

Watch over an impudent eye: and marvel not if she trespass against thee.
12

She will open her mouth, as a thirsty traveller when he hath found a fountain, and drink of every water near her: by every hedge will she sit down, and open her quiver against every arrow.

///////
And even though the following refers to a wife, I can see the same wisdom in it applied to a wicked adult daughter. If she is wicked, rebellious, dishonorable and unruly, I would cut her off just the same.

Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 25: 25-26 KJV

25

Give the water no passage; neither a wicked woman liberty to gad abroad.
26

If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, and give her a bill of divorce, and let her go.

 

[bro. Dexter for YAH]

are our daughters "more righteous than we" when they are forced to make their own way when we fail our duty to them to arrange their marriage?

I would say yes, especially if they actually desire their father to choose a husband for them and he doesn't do so.

As an Israelite, I have so much to say about the "Jewish thing" and "eating pig" but I'll take the bro @steve route...

Are those two statements connected?

Run for cover!
Incoming!

 

[MemeFan]

I did some thinking on this topic. I do very much like idea that teenagers must meet a large number of opposite sex. This was custom during 50's in America.

There are multiple advantages to such approach:

1) Better knowledge of opposite sex

This is self explanatory. It will install into younglings that opposite sex doesn't think like them and has often different values. In long term this will help with communication.

2) More equivalence in values within couples

In another words, more people will finish with people they deserve. Relationships are less stable when one partner is much better than another because weaker partner is obsessed with keeping his precious. That how simps are made.

Also, weak younglings can be made better before then get opportunity to become harpy because all men are evil and get idea that all women are worthless whores and better to go MGTOW.

3) Understanding of early stages of seduction

Good seduction as process is one thing leads to another and to another and then somehow baby is on the way. Is does help with avoiding bad partners when powerful feelings are included because there is better understanding what is happening.

It also helps with adultery avoidance later in life. We don't choose who is attractive to us, we can only choose our reaction. More experience handling dissapointments here does help.


Sort of same approach as with teaching children how to treat friends, just they are now older and will share less info.

Parents must also train their children how handle their sexuality. And here I mean things like virtues and behaviours, not sex itself. These are skills for life, their need doesn't dissapear after marriage. Packing child into marriage has

By the way, physical pleasures are sensuality. Not my topic here.

Reality is that child who is able to take care of themselves, has his own place, his support group and earns enough money can refuse his parent's commands. It was so now as it was in Jesus time. In the end, all children do finish inderpedent of their parents, one way or another.

And if they aren't taught correctly they will finish like this:

 

[rockfox]

*meets guy with a demon*
*keeps dating him for months on end*

The poster child for women's empowerment.

She had two intelligent, seemingly caring parents, one of whom became famous as a teacher on the ways of men and women. What's the source of your contention she wasn't taught properly?

 

[Obedient Christian girl]

Subtitle: arranged marriages are not human trafficking

Sub-subtitle: so-called "courtship" is to dating as trunk or treat is to trick or treat, a "Christian" whitewashing of darkness (aka syncretism)

This is an opinion piece right now, but close to becoming a conviction. Before I settle my mind on it, I wanted to throw it to the group to let it get chewed up and see what comes out the other end.

My opinion is this: it is not only a father's right, but also his responsibility to arrange the marriage of his daughter. Indeed, it should have been on his mind since her birth. When a man's daughter plays the field, it is to his shame, whether it be by ignorance or not, and cultural norms be damned.

My reasoning for this is based on observation of history and the Word. I can expound somewhat, but one of the biggest reasons it's still only an opinion is that my reasoning hasn't fully come together. So, if you'll indulge me, I'd rather present the opinion and then question and object to everything you say. I have seen dating (courtship) argued for from the Word, but the attempts I have seen so far were all the same parroted blind misreadings and unsubstantiated stretching of the information provided. As a hint, please be extra creative if you are going to reference Ruth. I will say also that I believe God put all the clues in earth that we need in order to see the unseen, that is heavenly things, and so if the heavenly things have been revealed, then likewise we have a cheatsheet for understanding the things of earth.

I think anyone faced with the concept of arranged marriages easily dismisses them as impossible in this age and locality, and therefore not worth discussing, or even dangerous to talk about seriously (because of severe persecution). Seeing as this group is like a gym of Bible buffs, and being emboldened by the Word have already openly discussed socially dodgy ideas... Let's see you lift this one.

Speaking from the daughter's perspective, arranged marriages only work if the father has a good deal of empathy, is able to read the room and a fair amount of seeing the big picture. This method only works if the father is wise and understands his daughters temperament.

My father arranged my marriage because he understands what I need to be happy and thrive in my husband's home. This man has raised me from birth, I brought him joy and pride through the years and in turn he kept me disciplined and innocent of the world's cruelties. I was pure when I married, my father said I was a precious gift to give in this world, he did not choose a man lightly, my husband had to prove he was worth the gift my father gave him.

My marriage story is as old as the hills, and theres a reason for it. Fathers through the generations have wanted nothing but the very best for the daughters they have worked so hard to raise and adore. I wouldn't have my love story any other way, My husband is the first and only man I'll love romantically and I owe my father everything for my current happiness

 

[B4DWrath]

Speaking from the daughter's perspective, arranged marriages only work if the father has a good deal of empathy, is able to read the room and a fair amount of seeing the big picture. This method only works if the father is wise and understands his daughters temperament.

My father arranged my marriage because he understands what I need to be happy and thrive in my husband's home. This man has raised me from birth, I brought him joy and pride through the years and in turn he kept me disciplined and innocent of the world's cruelties. I was pure when I married, my father said I was a precious gift to give in this world, he did not choose a man lightly, my husband had to prove he was worth the gift my father gave him.

My marriage story is as old as the hills, and theres a reason for it. Fathers through the generations have wanted nothing but the very best for the daughters they have worked so hard to raise and adore. I wouldn't have my love story any other way, My husband is the first and only man I'll love romantically and I owe my father everything for my current happiness

As a 58 year old widowed man, I would give nearly everything for that kind of gift.
Thank you for sharing.

 

[B4DWrath]

God can reveal His plans to the young people themselves and not to the parents.

I don't know if anyone else addressed this, but that would depend on your age and status. If you have left your parents household and established your own, I can see this happening. If you are still under their authority, why would the One who established a hierarchy in the family then proceed to circumvent that same structure? Especially when they were admittedly attempting to do it right.

 

[FollowingHim]

I don't know if anyone else addressed this, but that would depend on your age and status. If you have left your parents household and established your own, I can see this happening. If you are still under their authority, why would the One who established a hierarchy in the family then proceed to circumvent that same structure? Especially when they were admittedly attempting to do it right.

I largely agree - except to add that even with younger people if God's intent is to reveal this to both them and their parents, he's usually going to reveal it to one before the other. The order may be one way in some cases and the other in others, so there may be a period of time when the young people know God's plans and the parents have not realised it yet - and vice versa the parents may know for a time before the children.

 

[Keith Martin]

Subtitle: arranged marriages are not human trafficking

Sub-subtitle: so-called "courtship" is to dating as trunk or treat is to trick or treat, a "Christian" whitewashing of darkness (aka syncretism)

This is an opinion piece right now, but close to becoming a conviction. Before I settle my mind on it, I wanted to throw it to the group to let it get chewed up and see what comes out the other end.

My opinion is this: it is not only a father's right, but also his responsibility to arrange the marriage of his daughter. Indeed, it should have been on his mind since her birth. When a man's daughter plays the field, it is to his shame, whether it be by ignorance or not, and cultural norms be damned.

My reasoning for this is based on observation of history and the Word. I can expound somewhat, but one of the biggest reasons it's still only an opinion is that my reasoning hasn't fully come together. So, if you'll indulge me, I'd rather present the opinion and then question and object to everything you say. I have seen dating (courtship) argued for from the Word, but the attempts I have seen so far were all the same parroted blind misreadings and unsubstantiated stretching of the information provided. As a hint, please be extra creative if you are going to reference Ruth. I will say also that I believe God put all the clues in earth that we need in order to see the unseen, that is heavenly things, and so if the heavenly things have been revealed, then likewise we have a cheatsheet for understanding the things of earth.

I think anyone faced with the concept of arranged marriages easily dismisses them as impossible in this age and locality, and therefore not worth discussing, or even dangerous to talk about seriously (because of severe persecution). Seeing as this group is like a gym of Bible buffs, and being emboldened by the Word have already openly discussed socially dodgy ideas... Let's see you lift this one.

I was inspired by @MemeFan to pay attention to this thread that I missed during the past year. I will eventually go through every bit of it, but here are my debatably-worthwhile two cents heading into it.

• I'm not opposed to arranged marriages and even see them as generally superior to infatuation-driven marriages. I also share @NVIII's reluctance to let either the overarching culture or the fact that something's never been done to prevent discourse toward creating solutions; however, coming anywhere close to being able to implement an arranged marriage in our culture or even our subcultures is downstream of first establishing legitimacy and dominance of patriarchy in our culture. I assert that men in our culture generally do not deserve to choose the husbands of their daughters, because men in our culture have not come close to demonstrating that they can establish headship over their wives, much less the breadth of headship over their daughters required to determine who their mates-for-a-lifetime are going to be.
• What I am a fan of is raising one's daughters from Day One to be respectfully cooperative, fully aware that they should be prepared to be led by a strong man, and fully prepared to fully function as wives, across the board. I failed in this as a father and now recognize how much there is to catch up on given that I didn't really get in gear until my daughters were 17 and 19.
• I now thoroughly believe that dating on the part of daughters who aren't prepared to go out in the world without being protected by their fathers is wholly inappropriate and likely destructive of those daughters' futures. Even in our devolved culture with its destructive-of-patriarchy legal system, fathers have the legal authority to prohibit their daughters from dating until they're ready to go out on their own. Having worked in student affairs for numerous universities, I can guarantee everyone that anyone who pays for their children to go to college is a fool, and anyone who pays for their daughters to go off to college to live on campus is an even bigger fool. Only 1 in 1000 girls fail to get sucked into the degenerative atmosphere, negating almost everything you've bothered to teach them; we all want to think our daughters will be the exceptions, but in my many years of observation all but the most tenaciously-devout Christians are the most likely to succumb to debauchery and whoredom. But if they want to pay themselves for 4 years of Hedonistic Summer Camp, then that will be on them, and we can't prevent them from doing so. Fathers can, though, prevent their daughters from dating before they're prepared to be wives, but in most cases it would require willingness on the part of those fathers to send their own wives packing, because the vast majority of Western wives -- and this is true even among Biblical Families wives -- will demand that their daughters be permitted to date (aka known as sampling d***s) while in high school or junior high.