Let's make some pro PATRIARCHY memes!!

[FollowingHim]

We had a guest speaker on Sunday, who quoted a Greek Proverb that says that "Great men plant trees that they will never sit under." If that is is true and if it is applied to polygyny, I suppose I don't want to be a great man after all.

We should not support or promote any aspect of theology in the hope of personal gain. There are two points: Truth (an end in itself), and to help others. Any benefits we may receive ourselves along the way are blessings granted by God, that we do not deserve.

Let's face it though! If we are becoming an organization of parasites and worker bees, the worker bees among us, just might go elsewhere, and the whole ediface will collapse. I myself, have gotten worn down, going on YouTube and other discussion groups, trying to persuade the masses, that they are wrong. I have a regular job that I have to focus on. I don't get paid to debate people online. The Bible says that the laborer is worthy of his hire. I don't want to have to go shopping for a job every six months or so. That doesn't look good, when you are trying to win over someone.

Then don't debate people online. It virtually never actually achieves any good. It's usually a waste of time and only stresses the participants. I do not see debating online as the action of a worker bee helping all polygamists / potential polygamists. I see it as a personal choice of someone with the passion and time to do so. If you do not have the time, don't do it. It isn't actually a good use of time or emotional energy, and I would not encourage anyone to waste their efforts on it.

Jesus specifically instructed us about this exact thing, when He said:

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Using the excellent theological arguments you have (what is holy, pearls) and throwing them at people who have no interest in listening to them (dogs, swine), is a complete waste of your time and effort. And what is the result? They "trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you". In other words, FIRST they ignore the excellent theological arguments and trample them as if they were worthless, and THEN they personally harm you or your family because of your support for those theological arguments.

You are worn down because this is what has happened to you.

Someone spending enormous amounts of time on such activities, time that could be used more profitably elsewhere (e.g. in employment to support their family) is not a "worker bee". Those who choose to put their time into other activity they deem more productive are not "parasites". This is a very warped view of the entire situation.

 

[rockfox]

who quoted a Greek Proverb that says that "Great men plant trees that they will never sit under." If that is is true and if it is applied to polygyny, I suppose I don't want to be a great man after all.

If my coming to discover polygamy is only because God is laying the foundation for my son's to succeed in it I'm totally fine with that. A patriarch should take the long view on things and look out for the interests of those under him above his own.

 

[steve]

@Daniel DeLuca, you really like to over-think things.
The hard work is living an exemplary life that draws others in, not debating people online.
I have three wives, one of whom has been on vacation from the marriage these past four years. I think that I’m a bit familiar with what the hard work looks like.

I’m not running you any competition on the sites for available women, so don’t judge me if my family continues to grow.

 

[AmbassadorforChrist]

I am only saying that it does make it a bit frustrating in the search for the second. Yeah, I get mixed feelings about men who have two wives, going onto pro-poly forums and reaching out to women who are already on board with polygyny, and I probably will, until I have a second wife, but I put a lot of hard work into convincing people that polygamy is an acceptable practice, and I would like to see the fruit of my labor.

Us single guys on here could say the same thing about you guys looking for your seconds, I don't feel that way, but it is the exact same concept.
I have personally talked to a lot of people about poly, and if at some point God chooses to bestow on me a wife who is accepting of it, then I will be a very blessed man indeed. Believe me, that is something I want more then any other worldly thing at this time in my life, but it isn't something that any of us should feel is due us because of what we have done!

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

We should not support or promote any aspect of theology in the hope of personal gain. There are two points: Truth (an end in itself), and to help others. Any benefits we may receive ourselves along the way are blessings granted by God, that we do not deserve.

Perhaps, but the hope of personal gain, doesn't simply go away. The apostle Paul seemed to do just that, but his reward that he was seeking was more eternal than temporal. However, since we won't be having wives in heaven, that reward is not going to be an eternal reward anyhow.

Then don't debate people online. It virtually never actually achieves any good. It's usually a waste of time and only stresses the participants. I do not see debating online as the action of a worker bee helping all polygamists / potential polygamists. I see it as a personal choice of someone with the passion and time to do so. If you do not have the time, don't do it. It isn't actually a good use of time or emotional energy, and I would not encourage anyone to waste their efforts on it.

You know, if I hadn't seen posts from someone defending polygamy, who claimed that he was opposed to polygamy at one time, but was convinced by the arguments he encountered, I would believe that, myself. I have shown proof that Online Outreach does indeed work.

Using the excellent theological arguments you have (what is holy, pearls) and throwing them at people who have no interest in listening to them (dogs, swine), is a complete waste of your time and effort. And what is the result? They "trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you". In other words, FIRST they ignore the excellent theological arguments and trample them as if they were worthless, and THEN they personally harm you or your family because of your support for those theological arguments.

Debates usually don't persuade the participants so much as they persuade those who are on the fence. That is what convinced me. Having said that, I have indeed cut back on any online debates in order to focus more on my career. In addition, online debate has prepared me for the arguments that I would face from leaders at my church. If I had not been able to silence the critics, I don't know that my marriage would have remained in tact.

You are worn down because this is what has happened to you.

Someone spending enormous amounts of time on such activities, time that could be used more profitably elsewhere (e.g. in employment to support their family) is not a "worker bee". Those who choose to put their time into other activity they deem more productive are not "parasites". This is a very warped view of the entire situation.

I was worn down, but ever since my wife has come to accept polygamy, I have really curtailed the online activity significantly. "Worn down", was used in the sense of wanting to spend less time debating online, than what I know would be advantageous to get people to understand the truth. At this point, I have resigned myself to the reality that if and when wife #2 comes along, my church will most likely send me packing, and I will have to work with some folks to start a brand new church, although I am not content to keep that church confined to the four walls of my home. God has given me a much bigger vision than that.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

If my coming to discover polygamy is only because God is laying the foundation for my son's to succeed in it I'm totally fine with that. A patriarch should take the long view on things and look out for the interests of those under him above his own.

Such are the desires of some here, and I don't fault anyone here for that. Those are not the only desires that I have, although indeed I do hope for my sons, if they should choose to have more than one, to succeed in that endeavor. You and I are going to disagree on the age gap thing, but I think my sons will be more prepared to have more than one wife, if they are able to build up their empire of resources and investments first. I believe I quoted a verse from Proverbs, last time we had that discussion.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Us single guys on here could say the same thing about you guys looking for your seconds, I don't feel that way, but it is the exact same concept.
I have personally talked to a lot of people about poly, and if at some point God chooses to bestow on me a wife who is accepting of it, then I will be a very blessed man indeed. Believe me, that is something I want more then any other worldly thing at this time in my life, but it isn't something that any of us should feel is due us because of what we have done!

See, like I said before, I don't have any issue at all with someone who has two wives, getting a third wife. It just seems to me something that would be easier for them to do, without raiding the pool of available women who already embrace polygamy. Like they could just as easily find a woman who just never considered polygamy to begin with. Now it's possible I may just be able to approach a woman (not at my church mind you, on account of the gag order that I have agreed to), and ask her if she is willing to marry a married man, but I would think that if and when I do have two wives, and if I should decide that having a third wife, is the direction I should go, and there are lots of good reasons to do so, I won't encounter the same obstacles that I encounter now. Now @cnystrom here isn't under such a gag order, so I suppose he could try that approach, and I myself would not be under such a gag order, if I had not responded to a sermon that was preached, while my wife was still against polygamy, but I felt I had to do so at the time, for that very reason.

So, I would be curious, since you are not married, if you are part of a church that has a decent sized singles ministry, what reactions you have gotten from the women who are part of that ministry, when this topic is brought up, and does the biological time clock work in your favor in that effort?

 

[Jeff Ray]

Then don't debate people online. It virtually never actually achieves any good. It's usually a waste of time and only stresses the participants. I do not see debating online as the action of a worker bee helping all polygamists / potential polygamists. I see it as a personal choice of someone with the passion and time to do so. If you do not have the time, don't do it. It isn't actually a good use of time or emotional energy, and I would not encourage anyone to waste their efforts on it.

I would agree, if the person I was debating was the person I was trying to convince. Usually it isn't.

In most forums, there is usually an audience of observers who's opinions are not nearly as locked as the opponent's. Those are the people I'm really trying to reach. My oppenent is merely my foil, my convenient blackboard against which I can present my arguments and refute common objections.

To this end, the dumber and more swine-like my opponent the better, for that makes my side look better to the observers.

That said, this isn't for everyone. You need a thick skin, you need to be able to admit when you are wrong, and you need to be able to put in the time and emotional energy. Otherwise, find some other way to contribute.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

@Daniel DeLuca, you really like to over-think things.

That is my personality.

The hard work is living an exemplary life that draws others in,

Preferably future wives, which if you decide to grow your family, that would be the ideal way to go, and if not, you could recommend a few folks like @cnystrom or @AmbassadorforChrist or myself, who are still looking for their second.

not debating people online.

Well, it isn't exactly easy to keep up with all those erroneous statements out there, and while it may be easy to shoot them down, it does get overwhelming, playing whackamole. What can I say? I have a passion for the truth.

I have three wives, one of whom has been on vacation from the marriage these past four years. I think that I’m a bit familiar with what the hard work looks like.

I'm sure it is hard work keeping it all together, and we would all hope and pray that the third wife returns from that vacation soon, as we would for any other wife that is "on vacation" from her marriage.

I’m not running you any competition on the sites for available women, so don’t judge me if my family continues to grow.

I haven't exactly been putting myself out there on those sites. I would rather see a Christian dating website, before I create any such profile. I am a member of some Facebook groups, and that's where I see a few of these families where there are already two wives, and I have responded to some of them with what I would think would be sensible advice for them to acquire a third wife, so I don't judge them for wanting to grow their family, but I also know that the places where women are unable to find a husband, are not within these groups that embrace polygyny.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

I would agree, if the person I was debating was the person I was trying to convince. Usually it isn't.

In most forums, there is usually an audience of observers who's opinions are not nearly as locked as the opponent's. Those are the people I'm really trying to reach. My oppenent is merely my foil, my convenient blackboard against which I can present my arguments and refute common objections.

To this end, the dumber and more swine-like my opponent the better, for that makes my side look better to the observers.

That said, this isn't for everyone. You need a thick skin, you need to be able to admit when you are wrong, and you need to be able to put in the time and emotional energy. Otherwise, find some other way to contribute.

Well said! I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[steve]

and I have responded to some of them with what I would think would be sensible advice for them to acquire a third wife,

Dadgum!
You are a busy boy.

 

[Joleneakamama]

If my coming to discover polygamy is only because God is laying the foundation for my son's to succeed in it I'm totally fine with that. A patriarch should take the long view on things and look out for the interests of those under him above his own.

As much as I like the idea of a sisterwife myself, I have to trust that if the almighty purposes that for us He can and will make it happen. As a teen the thought of finding a compatible mate in the modern sea of people was impossibly daunting, so I prayed. That worked so well I am leaving my heart's desires up to the almighty where a co-wife is concerned, and trusting that if "she" isn't here.....that is for the best. Our children have been raised with a biblical understanding of marriage, and we have all been blessed by seeing how polygyny is a part of the big picture.
I got everything I ever wanted (and didn't expect to find) in a husband.
We have been blessed with many healthy children. Counting my blessings makes more sense right now then thinking about what may never be.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

Dadgum!
You are a busy boy.

Tell me about it! Imagine how busy I would be, if I had as many children as I would like to have! Until recently, I didn't have a television, but that didn't keep the wife and I from going through 6 seasons of "Lost"! (Watching Jack Sheppard gravel before his wife Sarah, was painful, LOL) You know, I will acknowledge a couple of other things that you said. I agree that what you are doing, is hard work, taking care of two wives, while I am sure you are hoping the third wife will return from her vacation. We would like to join you in that endeavor, as the more droplets of water we can put together, may not result in an ocean, so to speak, but it will at the very least, make for a bigger splash. Also. you may be competing against us without even realizing that you are doing so, if you are drawing from the same pond that we are drawing from, the water has to come from somewhere. Here in Texas, we always have these watering restrictions, especially during the summer months, and they are there for a good reason. Likewise, there is a good reason that we have game wardens, and wildlife protections for endangered species. I will admit that some of these regulations are absolutely ridiculous, but there are some good ones that are necessary. As far as we are concerned, we have to self-police, because no one is going to enforce any such restrictions, but keep your brothers in Christ in mind when you search for an additional wife, as together, we have a stronger voice in this battle that we are waging.

 

[Daniel DeLuca]

As much as I like the idea of a sisterwife myself, I have to trust that if the almighty purposes that for us He can and will make it happen. As a teen the thought of finding a compatible mate in the modern sea of people was impossibly daunting, so I prayed. That worked so well I am leaving my heart's desires up to the almighty where a co-wife is concerned, and trusting that if "she" isn't here.....that is for the best. Our children have been raised with a biblical understanding of marriage, and we have all been blessed by seeing how polygyny is a part of the big picture.
I got everything I ever wanted (and didn't expect to find) in a husband.
We have been blessed with many healthy children. Counting my blessings makes more sense right now then thinking about what may never be.

We are hoping and praying that we will have a daughter. Maybe one day, that will happen, and one of your boys, well as the old Wayne Watson song goes, "Somewhere in the world out there".

 

[Joleneakamama]

We are hoping and praying that we will have a daughter. Maybe one day, that will happen, and one of your boys, well as the old Wayne Watson song goes, "Somewhere in the world out there".

We had two boys before a girl...then four more boys in a row! Our two youngest (so far) are girls and they are such a different world! I hope y'all get some of each kind before you're done. One cannot replace the other no matter what delusional people in this mixed up world say.

 

[FollowingHim]

Preferably future wives, which if you decide to grow your family, that would be the ideal way to go, and if not, you could recommend a few folks like @cnystrom or @AmbassadorforChrist or myself, who are still looking for their second.

Also. you may be competing against us without even realizing that you are doing so, if you are drawing from the same pond that we are drawing from, the water has to come from somewhere.

Daniel, you seem to be considering poly-friendly women as some sort of objects that can be assigned to deserving men.

In reality, usually, a woman is attracted to a specific man, not to the theoretical idea of polygamy. A woman who is attracted to Steve cannot be recommended to another man - she's not interested in them. She's attracted to Steve - and she'd be attracted to him regardless of how many wives he had (she might just repress and not act on this attraction if he's already married and she rejects polygamy). It's not about polygamy, it's about personal relationships.

I think there is a fundamental disconnect in how we are looking at this entire issue.

I would agree, if the person I was debating was the person I was trying to convince. Usually it isn't.

That is true.

You need a thick skin, you need to be able to admit when you are wrong, and you need to be able to put in the time and emotional energy. Otherwise, find some other way to contribute.

And we fundamentally agree here, we just said it differently.

 

[steve]

In reality, usually, a woman is attracted to a specific man, not to the theoretical idea of polygamy. A woman who is attracted to Steve cannot be recommended to another man - she's not interested in them. She's attracted to Steve - and she'd be attracted to him regardless of how many wives he had (she might just repress and not act on this attraction if he's already married and she rejects polygamy). It's not about polygamy, it's about personal relationships.

I quite agree.
Women are not generic, each of them will have their own likes and dislikes. And those feelings can be incredibly arbitrary.
We all need to be our own best selves and work with those that are attracted to us/our families.
Prayer, of course, should never be underestimated. Prayer for our own growth, that of our families, AND for the personal growth of any women called to our families.

 

[steve]

Daniel, I do thank you for the compliment inherent in your consideration of this old guy as any form of competition.

 

[PeteR]

Someone please post a good patriarchy meme to get this post back on track...

 

[AmbassadorforChrist]

So, I would be curious, since you are not married, if you are part of a church that has a decent sized singles ministry, what reactions you have gotten from the women who are part of that ministry, when this topic is brought up, and does the biological time clock work in your favor in that effort?

I don't go to a church, and therefore I am not part of any groups, most of my talking happens with friends, or friends of friends, and I don't have many of those, only one of them is accepting of poly, and he's a guy, so no real surprise there.
I'm not going to discount the local girls altogether, but I start thinking maybe it would be a good idea to look outside of my little pond. I don't think the biological clock is really in my favor, that said "with God all things are possible."