What is this supposed to be proving? None of this says that a whore is someone who has sex before marriage.
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How do you possess a woman? You form one flesh with her, that makes her yours. You have positive control of your daughter but you don’t possess her the way her husband will. You can have your mother and sister in your household but you don’t possess them.
There is no other standard shown us for what makes the relationship between a husband and wife than one flesh.
Show me the scripture. Show me how possession of a woman is achieved. If it’s not sex then what is it?
I honestly don’t know what else to show you. Moses tells us the two shall be one flesh. Christ tells us the two shall be one flesh. Paul tells us that you can be one flesh by sleeping with a harlot. A=B, B=C, C=A.
The fact that having sex with a married woman is what gets you stoned should at least be a clue. You’re not stoned for buying a married woman, or hugging a married woman, or leaving your father and mother with a married woman. You’re stoned for having sex with a married woman.
So where is having sex without possessing the woman prohibited? What’s the penalty and where is it in the Law?
Those things aren’t sex. Those things bring death.
And where is this ownership transfer laid out for us? Where is it in scripture? I agree it’s a good idea but we’re not talking about what I think. We’re talking about what God said.
Keep in mind, I got my father-in-law’s permission to marry @windblown and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. But was it required for me to take possession of her? I can’t find that in scripture. And neither can you.
What I can find is one flesh. That’s all over the damn place.
I appreciate the humility, a lot can be lost in text.
Haha nope.
Sex outside of marriage.
The literal english and hebrew words are sexual promiscuity. Whoredom. Do a word study on that word. H2081, 2083
May our studies be fruitful and knowledge of the Most High’s will and law be made manifest in our hearts and minds.
Glad for men of iron backbone willing to sharpen.
Today was my only day to joust for a while. I’ll be back!
All over the place for those with eyes to see
Ok I am not the sharpest pencil when it comes this subject, so here is my 2 cents, this is how I understand Scripture and I definitely want to...2 Timothy 2:15 KJV Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
And…
Acts 17:11 KJV These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
When it comes to marriage I believe there are more than just one element to make two individuals married.
In the below passage you will notice that Elohim created both man and woman, He blessed them, commanded them by giving them to one another, to be fruitful and multiply.
Genesis 1:27-28 KJV So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (28) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
And I believe the above passage (Gen 1:27-28), where YaH gave them to one another is explained, I believe in greater detail, in Genesis 2 which The Revolting Man uses to say sex = marriage. There are a couple other passages that he uses to prove that, but I disagree. You see in Genesis 2, three things had to happen for it to be marriage.
Genesis 2:21-25 KJV And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; (22) And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. (23) And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. (24) Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (25) And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
First YaHWeH makes woman, kind of like a husband and wife make a daughter, but since Eve was the first she was created, no sex was needed. Second, He brought her unto the man, roughly translated meaning He gave her to him, like a father gives a daughter to a man. Thirdly, he went in unto her and became one flesh. In my opinion, there are two or three elements that need to happen to make a man and woman married, and sex alone doesn’t do it. If it did then Tamar would be Judah’s wife but the below passage never indicates that.
Genesis 38:13-26 KJV And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep. (14) And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. (15) When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face. (16) And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? (17) And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it? (18) And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him. (19) And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood. (20) And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not. (21) Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place. (22) And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place. (23) And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her. (24) And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. (25) When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff. (26) And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.
Ok we see Tamar presented herself as a harlot v 15, v 16 leads me to believe that it was common for men who were gone on a long journey to get a little nookie “I pray thee, let me come in unto thee;” and yes we know he became on flesh with her, because of this passage...1 Corinthians 6:16 KJV What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But not once in this passage is she ever referred to as Judah’s wife. V 26 Judah and this verse say “She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.”
Let’s touch on Exodus 22:16-17 KJV And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. (17) If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
The man went through the back door, if you will. And the father was not happy and he “utterly refuse to give her unto him,” think of it this way, John 10:1 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
There is more to this passage, if you want to, you can go to it and read it. All I know is the man in Ex 22:16 and the thief have one thing in common, they did not go through the head.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 KJV If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; (29) Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
I believe Deut 22 is picking up where Exodus left off. In Exodus the father had a choice of refusing and the man still had to pay, in Deut he had no choice, pay the father and she is yours for life, no putting her away.
I believe the Scriptures to be very clear when it comes to marriage, there is an arrangement between two men and YaHWeH and in an odd case we have a servant speaking for Abraham, for his son Isaac, with the family of the bride to be, Gen 24.
The husband to be is purchasing his wife from the father of the bride, there is an agreement and then we have Gen 2:24 come into effect, leave and cleave, and then become one flesh. Sex does not equal married, it does however equal one flesh, if it did equal married then all the harlots and men that had sex with them are to be put to death because they would be guilty of adultery.
Exodus 20:14 KJV Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Leviticus 20:10 KJV And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Proverbs 6:32 KJV But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.
I would also like to point out that if sex equaled a man and woman married then any man who would have sex with that woman would be an adulterer and if sex did equal marriage, then YaHWeH Himself by your definition of sex equaling marriage, YaHWeH commanded a man to commit adultery, after all you are saying sex equals marriage, And YaHWeH COMMANDED...Hosea 1:2-3 KJV The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD. (3) So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
He commanded Hosea to take a wife of whoredom, now the word used for whoredom has a wide range in it’s definition…
H2183
zânûn
zaw-noon'
From H2181; adultery; figuratively idolatry: - whoredom.
H2181
זָנָה
zânâh
zaw-naw'
A primitive root (highly fed and therefore wanton); to commit adultery (usually of the female, and less often of simple forniciation, rarely of involuntary ravishment); figuratively to commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Jehovah): - (cause to) commit fornication, X continually, X great, (be an, play the) harlot, (cause to be, play the) whore, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-whoring, whorish.
I am aware that the passage doesn’t say this, but I believe Gomer most likely was not a virgin, after all he was told to take a wife of whoredoms.
May we all keep our eyes and focus on YaHWeH's truth and strive to get closer to Him.
And…
Acts 17:11 KJV These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
When it comes to marriage I believe there are more than just one element to make two individuals married.
In the below passage you will notice that Elohim created both man and woman, He blessed them, commanded them by giving them to one another, to be fruitful and multiply.
Genesis 1:27-28 KJV So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (28) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
And I believe the above passage (Gen 1:27-28), where YaH gave them to one another is explained, I believe in greater detail, in Genesis 2 which The Revolting Man uses to say sex = marriage. There are a couple other passages that he uses to prove that, but I disagree. You see in Genesis 2, three things had to happen for it to be marriage.
Genesis 2:21-25 KJV And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; (22) And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. (23) And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. (24) Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (25) And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
First YaHWeH makes woman, kind of like a husband and wife make a daughter, but since Eve was the first she was created, no sex was needed. Second, He brought her unto the man, roughly translated meaning He gave her to him, like a father gives a daughter to a man. Thirdly, he went in unto her and became one flesh. In my opinion, there are two or three elements that need to happen to make a man and woman married, and sex alone doesn’t do it. If it did then Tamar would be Judah’s wife but the below passage never indicates that.
Genesis 38:13-26 KJV And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep. (14) And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. (15) When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face. (16) And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? (17) And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it? (18) And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him. (19) And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood. (20) And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not. (21) Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place. (22) And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place. (23) And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her. (24) And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. (25) When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff. (26) And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.
Ok we see Tamar presented herself as a harlot v 15, v 16 leads me to believe that it was common for men who were gone on a long journey to get a little nookie “I pray thee, let me come in unto thee;” and yes we know he became on flesh with her, because of this passage...1 Corinthians 6:16 KJV What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But not once in this passage is she ever referred to as Judah’s wife. V 26 Judah and this verse say “She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.”
Let’s touch on Exodus 22:16-17 KJV And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. (17) If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
The man went through the back door, if you will. And the father was not happy and he “utterly refuse to give her unto him,” think of it this way, John 10:1 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
There is more to this passage, if you want to, you can go to it and read it. All I know is the man in Ex 22:16 and the thief have one thing in common, they did not go through the head.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 KJV If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; (29) Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
I believe Deut 22 is picking up where Exodus left off. In Exodus the father had a choice of refusing and the man still had to pay, in Deut he had no choice, pay the father and she is yours for life, no putting her away.
I believe the Scriptures to be very clear when it comes to marriage, there is an arrangement between two men and YaHWeH and in an odd case we have a servant speaking for Abraham, for his son Isaac, with the family of the bride to be, Gen 24.
The husband to be is purchasing his wife from the father of the bride, there is an agreement and then we have Gen 2:24 come into effect, leave and cleave, and then become one flesh. Sex does not equal married, it does however equal one flesh, if it did equal married then all the harlots and men that had sex with them are to be put to death because they would be guilty of adultery.
Exodus 20:14 KJV Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Leviticus 20:10 KJV And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Proverbs 6:32 KJV But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.
I would also like to point out that if sex equaled a man and woman married then any man who would have sex with that woman would be an adulterer and if sex did equal marriage, then YaHWeH Himself by your definition of sex equaling marriage, YaHWeH commanded a man to commit adultery, after all you are saying sex equals marriage, And YaHWeH COMMANDED...Hosea 1:2-3 KJV The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD. (3) So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
He commanded Hosea to take a wife of whoredom, now the word used for whoredom has a wide range in it’s definition…
H2183
zânûn
zaw-noon'
From H2181; adultery; figuratively idolatry: - whoredom.
H2181
זָנָה
zânâh
zaw-naw'
A primitive root (highly fed and therefore wanton); to commit adultery (usually of the female, and less often of simple forniciation, rarely of involuntary ravishment); figuratively to commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Jehovah): - (cause to) commit fornication, X continually, X great, (be an, play the) harlot, (cause to be, play the) whore, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-whoring, whorish.
I am aware that the passage doesn’t say this, but I believe Gomer most likely was not a virgin, after all he was told to take a wife of whoredoms.
May we all keep our eyes and focus on YaHWeH's truth and strive to get closer to Him.
Not the same debate once again! 
I must say the whole of scripture on this topic makes complete sense if you set aside the concept of "marriage", not bother trying to work out who is "married" and who is not, and just read "husband" as "man" and "wife" as "woman" as per the original Hebrew & Greek. It's all plain and clear. We can spend all our lives going round and round trying to define when marriage begins, but I increasingly think it's pointless. Scripture tells us how we are to relate to other people, how we are to behave, and that is in almost all cases completely clear and agreed upon by both sides of this debate.
Is there any actual practical purpose in winning this debate - would it actually result in different behaviour? Or is it solely about "I'm thinking the right thoughts and you're a heretic for thinking the wrong thoughts"?
Maybe it's not there at all.
I must say the whole of scripture on this topic makes complete sense if you set aside the concept of "marriage", not bother trying to work out who is "married" and who is not, and just read "husband" as "man" and "wife" as "woman" as per the original Hebrew & Greek. It's all plain and clear. We can spend all our lives going round and round trying to define when marriage begins, but I increasingly think it's pointless. Scripture tells us how we are to relate to other people, how we are to behave, and that is in almost all cases completely clear and agreed upon by both sides of this debate.
Is there any actual practical purpose in winning this debate - would it actually result in different behaviour? Or is it solely about "I'm thinking the right thoughts and you're a heretic for thinking the wrong thoughts"?
Thank you Samuel.Not the same debate once again!
Maybe it's not there at all.
I must say the whole of scripture on this topic makes complete sense if you set aside the concept of "marriage", not bother trying to work out who is "married" and who is not, and just read "husband" as "man" and "wife" as "woman" as per the original Hebrew & Greek. It's all plain and clear. We can spend all our lives going round and round trying to define when marriage begins, but I increasingly think it's pointless. Scripture tells us how we are to relate to other people, how we are to behave, and that is in almost all cases completely clear and agreed upon by both sides of this debate.
Is there any actual practical purpose in winning this debate - would it actually result in different behaviour? Or is it solely about "I'm thinking the right thoughts and you're a heretic for thinking the wrong thoughts"?
1 Cor. 7:2-3, Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
If you want sex have it with the women who are yours. Don't have sex with any woman who is not yours. That's not hard to understand.
And if you do have sex with a woman who wasn't yours, [pay her father to make her yours] / [she's now yours, pay her father]. The precise point at which she became yours in that series of events is academic, the required behaviour and end result is identical.
Yeah, let’s get away from the western idea of “marriage”. And move towards God’s design of man and woman.
Agreed
I feel like this is a bit ego on all three of our parts. But a bit of us wanting to be conformed to God’s image and purpose. As well as wanting to be obedient and righteous in His eyes.
And this is the crux of the issue in my mind. To whom does she belong and when does that ownership transfer?
When did Adam have the right to have sex with Eve?
When do you have the right to have sex with a woman?
1 Cor. 7:2-3, Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
For us Polygynist an understanding of how to obtain a woman is extremely important. Some will say if the father didn't approve you don't have a second wife, some will talk war brides, this can be a critical understanding. Whether sex=marriage or sex requires marriage is negligible to me. The important thing is when does Yah consider you married, without this understanding many men and women will be mislead, make wrong decisions, separate what Yah has joined together, and cause much heartache. Many wont see the value of this statement until it's too late and they are in a sticky situation. Yes that became a pun unintentionally lol.
Thanks for the good write up Edward. I do disagree that a Father can refuse after the man pays in exodus. Otherwise the logic of a man could be: well if I just seduce her I only have a 50/50 shot at getting her, so I should just rape her and then it's a guarantee. I believe the father can refuse a negotiated dowry and require the highest price possible for virgin. If the man pays the father and the father doesn't release possession of the daughter, then he has made his daughter an expensive prostitute.
Except that you can get killed and be separated from your Creator for all eternity for committing adultery. So there’s something there.Not the same debate once again!
Maybe it's not there at all.
I must say the whole of scripture on this topic makes complete sense if you set aside the concept of "marriage", not bother trying to work out who is "married" and who is not, and just read "husband" as "man" and "wife" as "woman" as per the original Hebrew & Greek. It's all plain and clear. We can spend all our lives going round and round trying to define when marriage begins, but I increasingly think it's pointless. Scripture tells us how we are to relate to other people, how we are to behave, and that is in almost all cases completely clear and agreed upon by both sides of this debate.
Is there any actual practical purpose in winning this debate - would it actually result in different behaviour? Or is it solely about "I'm thinking the right thoughts and you're a heretic for thinking the wrong thoughts"?
And how the bell can you have a sin of sex before marriage but no marriage? This debate is important, I’d say vitally important given the consequences and the entire focus of this ministry.
So help a blind brother out because I don’t see it. And since adultery can cost me my soul it’s important that I do.
I admit I’m a little insulted that God bury something so vital down where it can’t be found easily but who am I to question Him?
That’s a really excellent summation of one side of the argument and that’s fine since you come down on one side of this argument. But you have a problem.
Scripture never commands us to negotiate with a father for his daughter, or who to negotiate with for an orphan. It never gives us any idea of what a pay scale might be. Scripture never tells us what the penalty for stealing a man’s daughter is.
The only thing we’re told is that if a father UTTERLY refuses to transfer ownership then the man is still on the hook for a bride price, although we’re not given any idea of what that might be. I’m sure those negotiations will go just swimmingly too.
Now here’s where all of this becomes vital, what is the status of this young woman who was seduced but her father refuses to give up? Is she eligible to go to another man? Why or why not? Since we are now clearly close to adultery, she has been one flesh, we need to be able to make a clear Biblical case here.
Holy hell men, the SIN OF ADULTERY is what we’re talking about. The mortal of sin of taking a woman who’s not yours to take is nothing to be flippant about, especially for men who claim they want to take women as much as we do.
Very few of the men in this conversation would actually disqualify a woman from joining their family because her father disagreed with polygyny. Hell, Inbet many of the men in this conversation never got their woman’s father’s permission at all. Are those men not in proper possession of those women? What is their status then? Should they return to their father’s house?
Very few of the men in this conversation would actually disqualify a woman from joining their family because her father disagreed with polygyny. Hell, Inbet many of the men in this conversation never got their woman’s father’s permission at all. Are those men not in proper possession of those women? What is their status then? Should they return to their father’s house?
And what scriptural reference do you base that on? I’m not disagreeing with you but what are the mechanics of the situation?