What does scripture say? You’re asking me to hypothesize. I don’t do that. I simply read the word. It says the father can utterly refuse and you must pay the price of virgins.
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What im saying is that the Law doesn't say anything. I believe that the father can refuse the dowry and require the bride price, but not refuse giving the daughter after the man pays. If the man pays and doesnt receive the daughter then the father prostituted his daughter. If another man comes along and does the same thing then we have a nice little home brothel.
Define fornication in the way you understand it?
Deuteronomy 22
28¶'When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found,
29then hath the man who is lying with her given to the father of the damsel fifty silverlings, and to him she is for a wife; because that he hath humbled her, he is not able to send her away all his days.
28¶'When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found,
29then hath the man who is lying with her given to the father of the damsel fifty silverlings, and to him she is for a wife; because that he hath humbled her, he is not able to send her away all his days.
Fornication is having sex outside of a marriage with an unmarried woman and then not marrying her. If she’s married already, you didn’t suddenly marry her by having sex with her; she’s already married and it’s adultery. If she’s unmarried, the Bible commands that you either marry her or pay what the father decides. If you don’t do that, and move on, it’s fornication.
The law says the father can utterly refuse to give her and the man must pay the bride price of virgins.
This is confusing. You’re repeating yourself with dowry and bride price.
The extra negative confuses your intent. What’re you trying to say?
This is adding to scripture. That is not what it says.
I wouldn’t disagree but you’re going to have to show me in scripture where it gives this as an example.
What scriptures teach you this?
So what happens after he pays for her? Does she belong to the father or the man? Also dowry and Virgin bride price are not the same thing.
If a father receives payment for a man having sex with his daughter, that equals prostitution.
Ok, just read over it again. Not a hebrew scholar but it seems like it could be that the “give her to him” could mean just give her over to the man’s ownership. “Well y’all already did the deed, ruined her, she’s yours” vs “I won’t give her to you”. Seems like this gives the man who seduced her the option of going to the elders, presenting the dowry and taking the woman from the father.
I’d want to input of someone like @frederick on this though.
And if
וְ / כִֽי
vᵊḵî
H3588
כִּי
kî
H C / C
a man
אִישׁ
'îš
H376
אִישׁ
'îš
H Ncmsa
entice
יְפַתֶּה
yᵊp̄atê
H6601
פָּתָה
pāṯâ
H Vpi3ms
a maid
בְּתוּלָה
bᵊṯûlâ
H1330
בְּתוּלָה
bᵊṯûlâ
H Ncfsa
that
אֲשֶׁר
'ăšer
H834
אֲשֶׁר
'ăšer
H Tr
is
אֹרָשָׂה
'ōrāśâ
H781
אָרַשׂ
'āraś
H VPp3fs
not
לֹא
lō'
H3808
לֹא
lō'
H Tn
betrothed,
אֹרָשָׂה
'ōrāśâ
H781
אָרַשׂ
'āraś
H VPp3fs
and lie
וְ / שָׁכַב
vᵊšāḵaḇ
H7901
שָׁכַב
šāḵaḇ
H C / Vqp3ms
with her,
עִמָּ / הּ
ʿimmâ
H5973
עִם
ʿim
H R / Sp3fs
he shall
יִמְהָרֶ / נָּה
yimhārennâ
H4117
מָהַר
māhar
H Vqi3ms / Sp3fs
surely
מָהֹר
māhōr
H4117
מָהַר
māhar
H Vqa
endow her
יִמְהָרֶ / נָּה
yimhārennâ
H4117
מָהַר
māhar
H Vqi3ms / Sp3fs
to be his
לּ / וֹ
lô
H R / Sp3ms
wife.
לְ / אִשָּֽׁה
lᵊ'iššâ
H802
אִשָּׁה
'iššâ
H R / Ncfsa
If
אִם
'im
H518
אִם
'im
H C
her father
אָבִי / הָ
'āḇîhā
H1
אָב
'āḇ
H Ncmsc / Sp3fs
utterly
מָאֵן
mā'ēn
H3985
מָאֵן
mā'ēn
H Vpa
refuse
יְמָאֵן
yᵊmā'ēn
H3985
מָאֵן
mā'ēn
H Vpi3ms
to give her
לְ / תִתָּ / הּ
lᵊṯitâ
H5414
נָתַן
nāṯan
H R / Vqc / Sp3fs
unto him,
ל / וֹ
lô
H R / Sp3ms
he shall pay
יִשְׁקֹל
yišqōl
H8254
שָׁקַל
šāqal
H Vqi3ms
money
כֶּסֶף
kesep̄
H3701
כֶּסֶף
kesep̄
H Ncmsa
according to the dowry
כְּ / מֹהַר
kᵊmōhar
H4119
מֹהַר
mōhar
H R / Ncmsc
of virgins.
הַ / בְּתוּלֹֽת
habṯûlōṯ
H1330
בְּתוּלָה
bᵊṯûlâ
H Td / Ncfpa
I’d want to input of someone like @frederick on this though.
And if
וְ / כִֽי
vᵊḵî
H3588
כִּי
kî
H C / C
a man
אִישׁ
'îš
H376
אִישׁ
'îš
H Ncmsa
entice
יְפַתֶּה
yᵊp̄atê
H6601
פָּתָה
pāṯâ
H Vpi3ms
a maid
בְּתוּלָה
bᵊṯûlâ
H1330
בְּתוּלָה
bᵊṯûlâ
H Ncfsa
that
אֲשֶׁר
'ăšer
H834
אֲשֶׁר
'ăšer
H Tr
is
אֹרָשָׂה
'ōrāśâ
H781
אָרַשׂ
'āraś
H VPp3fs
not
לֹא
lō'
H3808
לֹא
lō'
H Tn
betrothed,
אֹרָשָׂה
'ōrāśâ
H781
אָרַשׂ
'āraś
H VPp3fs
and lie
וְ / שָׁכַב
vᵊšāḵaḇ
H7901
שָׁכַב
šāḵaḇ
H C / Vqp3ms
with her,
עִמָּ / הּ
ʿimmâ
H5973
עִם
ʿim
H R / Sp3fs
he shall
יִמְהָרֶ / נָּה
yimhārennâ
H4117
מָהַר
māhar
H Vqi3ms / Sp3fs
surely
מָהֹר
māhōr
H4117
מָהַר
māhar
H Vqa
endow her
יִמְהָרֶ / נָּה
yimhārennâ
H4117
מָהַר
māhar
H Vqi3ms / Sp3fs
to be his
לּ / וֹ
lô
H R / Sp3ms
wife.
לְ / אִשָּֽׁה
lᵊ'iššâ
H802
אִשָּׁה
'iššâ
H R / Ncfsa
If
אִם
'im
H518
אִם
'im
H C
her father
אָבִי / הָ
'āḇîhā
H1
אָב
'āḇ
H Ncmsc / Sp3fs
utterly
מָאֵן
mā'ēn
H3985
מָאֵן
mā'ēn
H Vpa
refuse
יְמָאֵן
yᵊmā'ēn
H3985
מָאֵן
mā'ēn
H Vpi3ms
to give her
לְ / תִתָּ / הּ
lᵊṯitâ
H5414
נָתַן
nāṯan
H R / Vqc / Sp3fs
unto him,
ל / וֹ
lô
H R / Sp3ms
he shall pay
יִשְׁקֹל
yišqōl
H8254
שָׁקַל
šāqal
H Vqi3ms
money
כֶּסֶף
kesep̄
H3701
כֶּסֶף
kesep̄
H Ncmsa
according to the dowry
כְּ / מֹהַר
kᵊmōhar
H4119
מֹהַר
mōhar
H R / Ncmsc
of virgins.
הַ / בְּתוּלֹֽת
habṯûlōṯ
H1330
בְּתוּלָה
bᵊṯûlâ
H Td / Ncfpa
Id love to here from @frederick, maybe help shed some light.
Then how is a marriage formed?
Why are we talking about this verse, which isn’t actually about forming a marriage at all?
Were Adam and Eve married?
Why doesn’t Christ give teachings about married people divorcing? He ties His teachings in divorce to one flesh?
Why, if Moses, Christ and Paul all use the term one flesh are we using words like marriage and TTWCM?
I’m sorry but this just isn’t so. Genesis 2:24 introduces us to the union between a man and a woman and calls it one flesh. Christ tells us that divorce is something concerning one flesh. Paul tells us that you can form one flesh by lying with a harlot.
It’s clear as day. One flesh is formed by sex.
The only claim you can make is that one flesh isn’t marriage. That claim falls down immediately in light of Genesis 2:24 and Christ’s teachings on divorce.
What has never been proven is that one flesh doesn’t equal marriage. That’s the part you have to prove. This excursion into bride prices is a distraction.
No. Fornication, the translation for porneia, means prohibited sexual acts. It is a New Testament short hand for the entirety of sexual law.
Nowhere is there articulated a sin of sex before marriage or a penalty for it. This is also one of the many ironclad proofs that sex forms one flesh and one flesh is marriage.
@The Revolting Man
Mastering or becoming owner/lord of a woman. It’s about property/personal rights. Becoming one flesh is part of marriage.
And I have substantiated my claim that one flesh does not wholly constitute what we call marriage. The Exodus and Deuteronomy laws stipulate a future tense of a man acquiring the woman as a wife after ownership is transferred from father to man. The ownership does not transfer upon sexual union. This is also borne out in betrothal carrying the same weight legally as marriage.
You have failed to prove that one flesh equals marriage. Genesis 2
Genesis 2:22-25 KJVS
[22] And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. [23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. [24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. [25] And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. …
Adam is not making a law. He was describing the process of marriage. God gives the woman to the man. Then he leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife and becomes one flesh.
There’s a particular order here. Ignore it to your detriment. Ownership transfers, then and only then does a one flesh union occur.
I can enjoy my house. It’s mine. I can take my truck for a drive, load it up with manure and leave it sit for a month. I’m not permitted to do that with someone else’s truck. It’s all about property rights.
Strong's Number
H1166
Original Word
בּעל
Transliterated Word
bâ‛al
Phonetic Spelling
baw-al'
Parts of Speech
Verb
Strong's Definition
A primitive root; to be master; hence (as denominative from H1167) to marry: - Beulah have dominion ({over}) be {husband} marry ({-ried} X wife).
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
Mastering or becoming owner/lord of a woman. It’s about property/personal rights. Becoming one flesh is part of marriage.
And I have substantiated my claim that one flesh does not wholly constitute what we call marriage. The Exodus and Deuteronomy laws stipulate a future tense of a man acquiring the woman as a wife after ownership is transferred from father to man. The ownership does not transfer upon sexual union. This is also borne out in betrothal carrying the same weight legally as marriage.
You have failed to prove that one flesh equals marriage. Genesis 2
Genesis 2:22-25 KJVS
[22] And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. [23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. [24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. [25] And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. …
Adam is not making a law. He was describing the process of marriage. God gives the woman to the man. Then he leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife and becomes one flesh.
There’s a particular order here. Ignore it to your detriment. Ownership transfers, then and only then does a one flesh union occur.
I can enjoy my house. It’s mine. I can take my truck for a drive, load it up with manure and leave it sit for a month. I’m not permitted to do that with someone else’s truck. It’s all about property rights.
Strong's Number
H1166
Original Word
בּעל
Transliterated Word
bâ‛al
Phonetic Spelling
baw-al'
Parts of Speech
Verb
Strong's Definition
A primitive root; to be master; hence (as denominative from H1167) to marry: - Beulah have dominion ({over}) be {husband} marry ({-ried} X wife).
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
- to marry, rule over, possess, own
- (Qal)
- to marry, be lord (husband) over
- to rule over
- (Niphal) to be married
- (Qal)
What passage are you referring to??
No it doesn’t. You’re assuming that. It says a man leaves his father and mother. Does that constitute marriage? Cleaves to his wife. So hugging makes a marriage? No, we’re just gonna pick out the ONE phrase one flesh and laser focus on that.
Matthew 19:4-6 KJVS
[4] And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, [5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? [6] Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. …
Christ also tells us divorce is something about leaving your father and mother.
Yes, it’s called sex. Not marriage.
Yes this is correct
No way that’s true. Doesn’t fall down a hair.
You must prove one flesh does equal marriage. You make the claim. Scripture does NOT equate sexual intercourse to marriage. Or homosexuals would be married, beastialists would be married to their animals. One flesh means sexual union. Possessing a woman means just that.
We need to get away from the western garbage marriage idea. You have your stuff, I have mine. You want my horse, you gotta pay me for her before you get to ride her cross the sunset.
This sounds like some straight from God judgement.
Numbers 25:1-5 KJVS
[1] And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. [2] And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. [3] And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel. [4] And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel. [5] And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baal-peor.
There’s one. Next?
I understood the whoredom to be Israel from God, but I could be wrong. They joining themselves to another God.
Nick! Where does it say anything about sex before marriage?! That’s nowhere in this passage. Did you mean to quote a different one?