-
Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.
Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C
- Thread starter Verifyveritas76
- Start date
The debate or lack thereof sadly does not make your point, as your assertion of 70 sabbath worships was equally grossly overstated. The same argument could be used in regards to the passages where the church assembles on the First of the week. They are never debated in Scripture but rather appear to be the normative for Christian assembly to worship or teach believers as opposed to Hebrews/Jews. Something that cannot be asserted for the Sabbath and Synagogue.
You must not have had your glasses on when reading my post in regards to Isaiah 1:10, Lamentations 2, Hosea 2, Amos 8. All of which relate in no uncertain terms that God not only can change torah, and take away anything he chooses from it, but that He does so in cataclysmic style as He sees fit.
You must have a different Hebrews than I have access to, or different glasses to read it with. I’d be interested to see how you can reconcile a competing priesthood from the Pentateuch.
And I’m still breathlessly waiting for any kind of proof of a Mosaic Torah from the Garden.
I'll go on record as saying they have never ended. They may be temporarily suspended, but I'll bet everything that they will be in full effect when Messiah teaches Torah from Zion. Isaiah 2:1-5 and Malachi 4:1-5 ( I think).
3)Your bias is constantly being shown since you do not read things in context and that In Isaiah 1:10 they are being condemned for not following Torah as given as the Lord instructs. In Isaiah 1:10, Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah! How is God is giving Torah that distinctly contradicts specific instruction in Torah from Moses? Makes no sense, did you even read the verse or the context of Isaiah 1?
1)Show me where it actually says in scripture that the Sabbath changed without doing as the Pharisees or "early church fathers" do and interpret scripture to say something that contradicts itself in another place.
Your resting your bias understanding and saying that others are bias for reading scripture in context and stating in context, while cherry picking scripture and promoting the teachings of men who support your bias. such as the teachings of Early church fathers. Men like Clement of Alexandria. Clement argues for the equality of the sexes, on the grounds that salvation is extended to all of mankind equally. That women should have the exact same authority as men. He also suggests that Christ is neither male or female, and that God the Father has both male and female aspects. He is supportive of women playing an active role in the leadership of the church, and provides a list of women he considers inspirational, which includes both Biblical and Classical Greek figures. GODess worshiper.
Some of His other Beliefs:
- His belief that matter and thought are eternal, and thus did not originate from God.
- His belief in Cosmic Cycles predating the creation of the world, following Heraclitus, which is extra-Biblical in origin.
- His belief that Christ, as Logos, was in some sense created, separate form God, which has lead others to believe Yeshua is basically a meat puppet or another God.
- The heretical doctrine that Christ's earthly body was an illusion.
- His belief that Eve was created from Adam's sperm after he ejaculated during the night.
- His belief in reincarnation, i.e., the transmigration of souls.
- That concubinage is a sin, defines concubinage as any wife beyond the first.
2) First, the physical Tabernacle was a representation of the Tabernacle in Heaven. Its still there unchanged that's part of why we pray that your will is done here on earth as it is done in Heaven. When Yeshua is saying that He is The way, the entrance into the outer courtyard of the Tabernacle where the sacrifice is held and all sinners come for atonement, The Truth, the entrance to the holy place held up by 5 pillars (TORAH which is called what....The Truth) which only His priest enter, the Life which is the name of the entrance to the Holy of Holies to where Gods Judgement is, where only the High Priest, those who have Him in them go to actually fellowship with God. Hebrews explains this as does Paul when he speaks of the 3rd heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2. The Holies of Holy, the on going unchanging Tabernacle.
But God changes right? Olam the same word use for forever when it comes to His instructions and the promise of salvation in a renewed covenant doesn't mean forever, right its all context. Context. Gospel of the Kingdom, Repent the Kingdom of God is at Hand, He is fulfilling His prophecies and Promises. He has promised salvation to those who accept and obey Him. He is coming To Tabernacle with us here on earth. That's the Gospel of the kingdom preached through out all of scripture.
Context Or Fig leaves. Your choice.
Last edited:
At times in the past I have pointed others to the early church fathers and the Talmud for historical context and that they got a few things right. I want to apologize to any that have been lead astray by assuming any of those teachings are authoritive they are not. I justified traditions that weren't taught by God as instructions by saying they were harmless because they didn't contradict scripture. I was wrong because those traditions of Rabbis and the early church fathers are taught as instruction from God, and in the case of the Rabbis are written as laws in the Talmud. Any adding to His word is a sin Deut. 4:2. No matter how it is presented as tradition or instruction. I have a lot of real world issues with the church I'm dealing with and wanted to take a break from BF. I decide tonight at Shabbat service I'm going to confront all rabbinical practices, such as the rabbinical calendar for keeping the feast days instead of the lunar calendar as well as men covering their heads to pray or wearing a kippah when praying. If they don't reject rabbinical practices I'm giving them the left foot. I'm Going to do the same in my Sunday service when it comes to the traditions of early church fathers. Ill give them the left foot as well if they chose to keep the pagan traditions of the Early Church Fathers. Then Ill have all the time in the world to annoy everyone on BF with what scripture actually says until I get banned.
Last edited:
If they have never ended, please give examples of them today as they are commanded in Torah, especially as they relate to a believer in the real world post crucifixion.
I have no doubt that Christ will teach his law from Zion, one day. And there will be a tabernacle on earth again, and there will be sacrifices and oblations of some sort again. On that, we seem to agree. We would probably disagree however as to what he will include in his law. Simply because, while I would agree wholeheartedly that God does not ever change, the simple text of scripture shows that God has changed parts of his law from era to era while keeping the outline of the Law the same. To some, it seems that this means that God is a liar if he ever changes his mind. I disagree. Scripture does not lie and yet testifies to both an unchanging God who periodically initiates changes in the law by the word of the Lord.
Thus, if God changes the law periodically as he sees fit, those changes cannot have any bearing on the unchangeability of God.
Obviously, I make no claims to being an expert on the Early Church Fathers, nor do I claim that they are perfect. Especially as distanced as Clement is in the 180’s to 200’s AD.
At this point, I am working my way through his works and am currently mid Stromata 7 though I have not started on his Paedogogus Works nor his Address to the heathens.
I have come to the point that I don’t trust anyone’s commentary on any of the church fathers so if you have footnotes for all of those claims, I’ll be glad to read the passages for myself and verify their commentary. Otherwise those are just hollow attacks that don’t really match up with what I have personally read. If you havent personally read them, you shouldn’t be passing them on as gospel until you have verified them. Thats kinda like bearing false witness against your neighbor.
FWIW I did go through the last list of footnotes you provided and that commentary was horribly skewed to the point of being slander.
Hebrews 8:4 "Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law"
Simply, at the time of the writing of Hebrews, decades after the resurrection, the author says that the Levites were still offering 'according to the Law.' The Levitical priesthood was serving legitimately and obediently. Their sin was not in doing it or not doing it. Their sin was disbelief in/rejection of Yeshua.
As to the Levitical v. Melchizedek priesthood, the Levitical is subordinate to the Melchizedek, but not negated by it. Clearly, from Hebrews, especially the cited verse, Yeshua is superior, but the Levitical continued to exist Lawfully. Further, we are told in multiple places that it will be a major factor in the Millennium. This cannot be ignored.
Major point: When the Messiah comes, He will be one who speaks the words of Moses. (Deut 18:15-19; 12:32-13:10) The Messiah will not teach a 'different Torah.' Moses is our guide. Any who teaches differently than Moses is a false teacher.
Now, you want present real world examples.... Well, I previously said they were suspended. No Levites, no Temple... no ability to be obedient to certain parts of Torah. This is part of the judgment on us for refusing to obey in the past. @Pacman pointed out Deu. 30. Not only was it prophesied that the curses would come on Israel from the very beginning, but that we would recall these things to mind in the nations where we have been driven. (Whether you are natural born part of Israel or grafted in part, matters not...) And we return with our whole heart and obey (to the fullest ability we have) according to all I command you today... THEN He restores us, gathers us from the four winds (compare Deut 30:4 'outcasts at the end of the sky' with Matthew 24:31 'gather the elect from one end of the sky to the other'...) and after gathering us to the land (v 5) He will circumcise our hearts (v.6)!!
BIG ASIDE: Paul uses this passage in Romans 9-11 to explain the big picture plan of Elohim! Read Ezekiel 36:22-28; 37:15-28!! See the "new covenant of Jeremiah 31... in fact, read the whole chapter. The pieces fit! Destiny is IN the Land, doing Torah, under the watchcare of Messiah! He, the Prince, will oversee the Levitical Priesthood in the rebuilt Temple offering 'the fat and the blood!' See Ezekiel 44:15 in context...
In Moses’s Torah: do, In the torah given in Isaiah: don’t
Are you saying that God didnt say:don’t ? Or that he did tell them don’t, but its ok because the context allows him to change his mind?
And yes, I did read the whole chapter.
That seems to be in direct opposition to his statements in the Fragments
III.--COMMENTS ON THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN.
Chap. i. I. "That which was from the beginning; which we have seen with our eyes; which we have heard."
Following the Gospel according to John, and in accordance with it, this Epistle also contains the spiritual principle.
What therefore he says, "from the beginning," the Presbyter explained to this effect, that the beginning of generation is not separated from the beginning of the Creator. For when he says, "That which was from the beginning," he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-existent with the Father. There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate. That He was always the Word, is signified by saying, "In the beginning was the Word." But by the expression, "we have seen with our eyes," he signifies the Lord's presence in the flesh, "and our hands have handled," he says, "of the Word of life." He means not only His flesh, but the virtues of the Son, like the sunbeam which penetrates to the lowest places,--this sunbeam coming in the flesh became palpable to the disciples.
While this sounds mocking, I want to give it serious treatment. Before I do, please define for me 'Mosaic Torah' so I can be sure to address this fully. Thanks!
@Verifyveritas76 how can you not understand that God is saying, 'You are wretched and willful sinners going through the motions. Obedient hands and rebellious hearts are a waste of time. Repent and obey, cease to do evil and I will restore and bless.'
The point is, God wants obedient hearts and hands!! And, He promises in Isaiah 2 that it will happen... exactly as Deuteronomy 30, Jeremiah 31, Hosea 1, Ezekiel 36 and 37 all promise. There are more witnesses, but those are enough as previously cited.
For all reading an observing this discussion / debate: It is no small thing that this weekend is Shavuot or Pentecost. Specifically, Sunday is the 50th day. It is the celebration of the giving of the Torah and the celebration of the giving of the Spirit. It is also the festal waving of TWO leavened loaves, by the High Priest, to the four corners of the earth (sky).
Where did the Holy Spirit show up? In the Temple!! Where else do you put hundreds and then 3000 people from all nations? That is 'the House!'
The point: Here we are debating the validity of the whole written Word of God. Even Christians who do not understand or buy into the 'Torah awakening' pick through the 'Mosaic Torah' and acknowledge the validity of marriage, adultery and poly laws. They are foundational and must be unchanging, else we are in a house built on sand.
May each of us, in the next 24-48 hours, earnestly ask the Father to do HIS work in us by the washing of the blood and the Holy Spirit according to HIS will and not our own. May He open our eyes and ears. May He cause us to walk in HIs ways (whatever they may be) and may He use us to His glory and the benefit of HIS everlasting Kingdom.
I bless each of you and will be praying for you by name through this weekend!!
Shabbat Shalom v'chag Sameach Shavuot!!
Where did the Holy Spirit show up? In the Temple!! Where else do you put hundreds and then 3000 people from all nations? That is 'the House!'
The point: Here we are debating the validity of the whole written Word of God. Even Christians who do not understand or buy into the 'Torah awakening' pick through the 'Mosaic Torah' and acknowledge the validity of marriage, adultery and poly laws. They are foundational and must be unchanging, else we are in a house built on sand.
May each of us, in the next 24-48 hours, earnestly ask the Father to do HIS work in us by the washing of the blood and the Holy Spirit according to HIS will and not our own. May He open our eyes and ears. May He cause us to walk in HIs ways (whatever they may be) and may He use us to His glory and the benefit of HIS everlasting Kingdom.
I bless each of you and will be praying for you by name through this weekend!!
Shabbat Shalom v'chag Sameach Shavuot!!
Your statement that they were offering legitimately and obediently is an assumption from bias that is read into that passage.
If, after the crucifixion, they were offering a legitimate sacrifice, why would chapter 10 state that these offerings of the Law God had no pleasure therein. Their observance of this law post Christ made them guilty of Isaiah 66:3. Yea, they have chosen their own ways and their soul delighteth in abominations. Resulting in Daniel 9:26. The priests that you laud for obeying Moses’ law post Christ were the source of the overspreading of abominations by utilizing His house to continue to kill animals in His name. God destroyed “His” house to stop it.
Above when he said,†Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; [Psalms 40:6-8 quoted but is also witnessed by Is.1:10-14, 66:3, Lamentations 2, Hosea 2 and Amos 8]
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And† every priest standeth daily† ministering and offering often times the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hebrews 10:18-20
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
The old dead way was sacrifice for sin via dead animals per Torah. It was an abomination to imagine human sacrifices for sin. And yet under Christ, an animal that is sacrificed for sin is an abomination and a single specific human sacrifice is now the norm.
Um . . . .Thats a really big difference. Dare I say change?
If, after the crucifixion, they were offering a legitimate sacrifice, why would chapter 10 state that these offerings of the Law God had no pleasure therein. Their observance of this law post Christ made them guilty of Isaiah 66:3. Yea, they have chosen their own ways and their soul delighteth in abominations. Resulting in Daniel 9:26. The priests that you laud for obeying Moses’ law post Christ were the source of the overspreading of abominations by utilizing His house to continue to kill animals in His name. God destroyed “His” house to stop it.
Above when he said,†Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; [Psalms 40:6-8 quoted but is also witnessed by Is.1:10-14, 66:3, Lamentations 2, Hosea 2 and Amos 8]
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And† every priest standeth daily† ministering and offering often times the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hebrews 10:18-20
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
The old dead way was sacrifice for sin via dead animals per Torah. It was an abomination to imagine human sacrifices for sin. And yet under Christ, an animal that is sacrificed for sin is an abomination and a single specific human sacrifice is now the norm.
Um . . . .Thats a really big difference. Dare I say change?
The laws given and defined at Sinai. You can even include the ones Moses added in Deuteronomy.
I do understand that. Totally. They were horrible people that were false swearers of the Almighty.
That only explains why God would disassociate himself from them, and gives no explanation why he would disassociate himself thru Torah with a previous Torah instruction for how sinful men make restitution with a holy God.
By which blood of the covenant were you sanctified under? Not being facetious here, but its an important point.
Part of me says your just trying to make a joke at my expense. I know you. Your discernment and understanding can't be this far off. Isaiah isn't Teaching a second Torah a different Torah Here.
He's saying He had enough of the sinning. Enough of the sacrifices used to cover sin temporarily. Stop breaking my Torah. As long as you keep sinning I will not be pleased. You sin and make atonement but the covering of animals bloods doesn't please me because you keep sinning. You worship me in vain. With words but you keep sinning. You keep breaking my Torah. The incense of those who obey HIM are pleasant in other passages. They are the prayers of the faithful. Here he's talking about them being abomination giving by a rebellious people who don't obey His instruction. People that don't keep His instructions but claim to be His. People who choose sin and sacrifice to cover their sin instead of obeying. Those who have tasted of His goodness yet choose to make His name for naught by refusing to submit to Him. Those who falsely claim Him but reject His instructions but uphold His feast to Honor Him. Falsley because of no repentance, no submission. You can't repent sin and then chose to sin because you can do something to make it go away. Ignoring the instructions of God is Rebellion. There is no Two different Torahs here. In verses 21-31 redemption to those who repent and obey and destruction to sinners and transgressors....of what....His Torah.
You do realise this is phrophecy for the rebellious then, now, and until judgement.
He's saying He had enough of the sinning. Enough of the sacrifices used to cover sin temporarily. Stop breaking my Torah. As long as you keep sinning I will not be pleased. You sin and make atonement but the covering of animals bloods doesn't please me because you keep sinning. You worship me in vain. With words but you keep sinning. You keep breaking my Torah. The incense of those who obey HIM are pleasant in other passages. They are the prayers of the faithful. Here he's talking about them being abomination giving by a rebellious people who don't obey His instruction. People that don't keep His instructions but claim to be His. People who choose sin and sacrifice to cover their sin instead of obeying. Those who have tasted of His goodness yet choose to make His name for naught by refusing to submit to Him. Those who falsely claim Him but reject His instructions but uphold His feast to Honor Him. Falsley because of no repentance, no submission. You can't repent sin and then chose to sin because you can do something to make it go away. Ignoring the instructions of God is Rebellion. There is no Two different Torahs here. In verses 21-31 redemption to those who repent and obey and destruction to sinners and transgressors....of what....His Torah.
You do realise this is phrophecy for the rebellious then, now, and until judgement.
Did you happen to read further down in the chapter?
Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB
[26] For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [27] but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. [28] Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [29] How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? [30] For we know Him who said, "Vengeance IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "The LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." [31] It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The Sabbath was given before Sianai so the what covenant your under argument is a non argument.
Exodus 16:22-30
22 On the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each individual. So all the leaders of the community came and informed Moses. 23 But he said to them, “This is what Adonai has said. Tomorrow is a Shabbat rest, a holy Shabbat to Adonai. Bake whatever you would bake, and boil what you would boil. Store up for yourselves everything that remains, to be kept until the morning.”
24 So they set it aside until the morning, just as Moses instructed, and it did not rot nor were there any worms. 25 Then Moses said, “Eat that today, because today is a Shabbat to Adonai. Today you will not find it in the field. 26 You are to gather it for six days, but the seventh day is the Shabbat, and there will be none.”
27 Yet on the seventh day, some of the people went out to gather and they found none. 28 Adonai said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep My mitzvot and My Torah? 29 See, Adonaihas given you the Shabbat, so on the sixth day He gives you the bread of two days. Let every man stay in his place, and let no man go out on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
Exodus 16:22-30
22 On the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each individual. So all the leaders of the community came and informed Moses. 23 But he said to them, “This is what Adonai has said. Tomorrow is a Shabbat rest, a holy Shabbat to Adonai. Bake whatever you would bake, and boil what you would boil. Store up for yourselves everything that remains, to be kept until the morning.”
24 So they set it aside until the morning, just as Moses instructed, and it did not rot nor were there any worms. 25 Then Moses said, “Eat that today, because today is a Shabbat to Adonai. Today you will not find it in the field. 26 You are to gather it for six days, but the seventh day is the Shabbat, and there will be none.”
27 Yet on the seventh day, some of the people went out to gather and they found none. 28 Adonai said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep My mitzvot and My Torah? 29 See, Adonaihas given you the Shabbat, so on the sixth day He gives you the bread of two days. Let every man stay in his place, and let no man go out on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.