Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C

[The Revolting Man]

Leviticus 23:3 NASB
[3] 'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.

That word convocation means:

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition

1. convocation, convoking, reading, a calling together
   1. convocation, sacred assembly
      
      
   2. convoking
      
      
   3. reading

Usage by Word
convocation (14), assemblies (2), convocations (2), assembly (1), reading(1), summoning (1)

I'm not sure that means a corporate meeting of the congregation. I'm willing to be proven wrong though.

 

[PeteR]

I'm not sure that means a corporate meeting of the congregation. I'm willing to be proven wrong though.

Remember, towns and communities were small and scattered. Many had little or no fellowship through the week. So, gathering for worship at the local synagogue was desirable even if a very small group. Doesn't meet to be a big group or long trip... but, we are to 'come together.'

 

[rustywest4]

Forsake not the gathering together of yourselves.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I agree we ar to gather and to do so regularly and in an organized manner. I'm just not convinced that it has to be on Sabbath. My preference would be a Friday night meeting and meal incidentally. I just don't see where I can declare "thus saith the Lord" on it.

 

[PeteR]

I agree we ar to gather and to do so regularly and in an organized manner. I'm just not convinced that it has to be on Sabbath. My preference would be a Friday night meeting and meal incidentally. I just don't see where I can declare "thus saith the Lord" on it.

Many do on Friday evenings.... what we found is that if we did that, by 2 pm on shabbat the boys were wrestless and looking for trouble. By making Friday evening a close family time, rest late shabbat with afternoon fellowship and Bible study, we weren't tempted to misuse or abuse the day... just what works for us.. Best for you to find what works for you/tour family within the parameters of what Abba instructs.

Blessings!

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Translation bias is pretty difficult to see when you are proof texting and reading your own bias into the text.

The day starts at sundown. Keep that in mind when reading this:

Acts 20:7-9 NASB
[7] On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. [8] There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. [9] And there was a young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead.

Also we are not prohibited from meeting on other days. The example of other meetings does not make any impact on the weekly sabbath. There are also passages about meeting daily...

Without a direct statement that says “you know that perpetual everlasting sabbath thingy? well I’m going to redefine perpetual and everlasting, but don’t worry it won’t effect everlasting life I’m only changing this one time. That whole thing about me not changing well this is the one exception” but he didn’t do that did he? And I for one am extremely grateful that he didn’t.

As to proof texting, this understanding that Christ met with the disciples specifically on two Sundays is not original with me as I showed in the first part of the thread with Tatian’s Diateresson. It does shed light though on translator issues when they don’t understand the import behind the Greek phrases due to a lack of cultural insight into the early church. A simple choice to use the English word “after” instead of the alternate (and more accurate) “on,” “of” or “with” for the Greek word “meta” has had lasting effects as we can see with this conversation. (As well as the idea of “after” 3 days)

IMO what Christ did as a perfect high priest is important. And is very evident in many early writings that those believers were observing a Sabbath on Sunday mostly to associate with his resurrection, but also to distance themselves from observing a Jewish Sabbath.

 

[PeteR]

IMO what Christ did as a perfect high priest is important. And is very evident in many early writings that those believers were observing a Sabbath on Sunday mostly to associate with his resurrection, but also to distance themselves from observing a Jewish Sabbath.

Sorry, but this is clear bias. 1. The Sabbath isn't Jewish. God clearly calls it 'My Sabbath'. 2. Yeshua did not overturn the Sabbath. a) He couldn't, b) there is zero record of such anywhere in Scripture or history. It has to be read into the situation. 3. There is no solid evidence that Sunday was universally practised among believers in Yeshua, else Constantine's invoking the sword in 325 CE is meaningless.

Bottomline: violating Shabbat is a clear death penalty issue in the Torah. If God changes it, He MUST use language and instruction at least as clear as the original nine commands to guard the seventh day.

Compare: How much evidence would it take to override the adultery commands? Clear commands need clear counter commands... and, they aren't there. Period.

 

[Pacman]

IMO what Christ did as a perfect high priest is important. And is very evident in many early writings that those believers were observing a Sabbath on Sunday mostly to associate with his resurrection, but also to distance themselves from observing a Jewish Sabbath.

Dude you are using faulty inconsistent extra biblical sources to explain away the clear command of Yah. This is not a legitimate argument!

 

[Phillip]

My wife and I have begun worshipping on Friday nights. After sunset. That, as I understand things, is the beginning of the biblical sabbath. At the moment, only one other couple joins us.

I know we are under a time of grace, but Jesus plainly told us He didn’t come to do away with the law, but fulfill it. As I told @Pacman the other day, the more I study, the more Torah means to me. The Old and New Testaments flow so well with one another.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Dude you are using faulty inconsistent extra biblical sources to explain away the clear command of Yah. This is not a legitimate argument!

Not at all. I’m merely pointing out that there is a huge hole in the mantra that all true believers post crucifixion observed the sabbath.

And that there is quite a bit of supporting evidence to back up that stance both biblically and historically, including the examples of Christ.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Sorry, but this is clear bias. 1. The Sabbath isn't Jewish. God clearly calls it 'My Sabbath'. 2. Yeshua did not overturn the Sabbath. a) He couldn't, b) there is zero record of such anywhere in Scripture or history. It has to be read into the situation. 3. There is no solid evidence that Sunday was universally practised among believers in Yeshua, else Constantine's invoking the sword in 325 CE is meaningless.

Bottomline: violating Shabbat is a clear death penalty issue in the Torah. If God changes it, He MUST use language and instruction at least as clear as the original nine commands to guard the seventh day.

Compare: How much evidence would it take to override the adultery commands? Clear commands need clear counter commands... and, they aren't there. Period.

Perhaps it is a bias, but I wasn’t quoting my bias, but rather early Christianity’s bias.

Constantine’s edict of the sword is a sleight of hand/misdirection which does nothing to discredit a Sunday observance. Does it imply that there were people who observed a Saturday sabbath? Probably.

I’ve already mentioned that I’ve found a couple of instances supporting that. One in Justin Martyr that was brief and didn’t identify who was doing it, and another that identified them as Ebionites who were Torah observant but also taught that Paul was an apostate because of his anti Torah teachings

 

[PeteR]

Not at all. I’m merely pointing out that there is a huge hole in the mantra that all true believers post crucifixion observed the sabbath.

And that there is quite a bit of supporting evidence to back up that stance both biblically and historically, including the examples of Christ.

Even if they were keeping Sunday instead of Shabbat, that doesn't make it right... according to Paul some were marrying their stepmoms, too...

The point is there is NO alteration or command in Scripture for any day other than the seventh day. We have to read that bias into the visits of Yeshua with a strong dose of assumption to make a doctrinal stand. Sabbath worship is talked about some 70 times in the new testament. Sunday is only implied in a couple places.. maybe three... even Paul told gentiles 'come back next Shabbat' when they wanted to hear more. (Acts 13 or 14...)

Seriously, nothing wrong with worship or gathering on other or both days. We do sometimes, but that in no way changes the command for the seventh day.

 

[The Revolting Man]

My wife and I have begun worshipping on Friday nights. After sunset. That, as I understand things, is the beginning of the biblical sabbath. At the moment, only one other couple joins us.

I know we are under a time of grace, but Jesus plainly told us He didn’t come to do away with the law, but fulfill it. As I told @Pacman the other day, the more I study, the more Torah means to me. The Old and New Testaments flow so well with one another.

Muuuuuuu hahahahahahaha! Another gives in to the power of the force!

 

[Pacman]

And that there is quite a bit of supporting evidence to back up that stance both biblically and historically, including the examples of Christ.

Only from unreliable extra biblical sources that often contradict themselves and have other clearly unbiblical stands. Bring scripture that’s the standard.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Even if they were keeping Sunday instead of Shabbat, that doesn't make it right... according to Paul some were marrying their stepmoms, too...

The point is there is NO alteration or command in Scripture for any day other than the seventh day. We have to read that bias into the visits of Yeshua with a strong dose of assumption to make a doctrinal stand. Sabbath worship is talked about some 70 times in the new testament. Sunday is only implied in a couple places.. maybe three... even Paul told gentiles 'come back next Shabbat' when they wanted to hear more. (Acts 13 or 14...)

Seriously, nothing wrong with worship or gathering on other or both days. We do sometimes, but that in no way changes the command for the seventh day.

Nowhere post crucifixion does it say that a Sunday worship is wrong, so there goes your stepmom comparison.

Re: The Sabbath worship you mention as being 70 times, I found the sabbath mentioned 53 times.
Of the 53 times, 43 were pre crucifixion. As we are most likely on the same page pre Crucifixion I wont take much time with these.

Of the 43, only 5 were in regards to an assembly/ synago on the Sabbath and that was for Christ to speak or teach in them. The other 38 times were to identify the day of the week.

Post Crucifixion its listed 10 times. Of the 10 times, 6 were for Paul to share the Gospel/debate and refute in the Synagogue, (3 of the six ended with him either shaking the dust off his feet or separating from them in some way including the mention where he told them to come back next shabbat) 1 was an assembly by the river to share the gospel(the only one that seemed to fit a Shabbat assembly, though not of believers) 1 is instruction that the day you observe on doesnt matter and 2 are to identify the day.

So, as I mentioned in my earlier post, only one mention of the sabbath, post crucifixion, can even be remotely construed to support your claims of Christian Sabbath worship.

Compared to the only times mentioned post Crucifixion that Christ assembled with believers were on a Sunday, (2 times) and every mention of the church assembling was on a Sunday or First day or Lords Day. There’s no mention of the church meeting on a sabbath. (Though it is implied in the passage where Paul says it doesnt matter which day you observe)

The big numbers sound good initially but contextually it fails miserably.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Only from unreliable extra biblical sources that often contradict themselves and have other clearly unbiblical stands. Bring scripture that’s the standard.

It’s funny how they’re unreliable if they disagree with a certain position. Obviously no one is saying that they are perfect in every instance, but they don’t have to be to historically document a Christianity bias for worshipping on a Sunday. Thats why its called history, not scripture.

As to the Scripture standard, see my previous post.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The point is there is NO alteration or command in Scripture for any day other than the seventh day.

This is also not true.

Isaiah 1:10-14
Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law (Towrah) of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? [Moses]
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
[this Torah seems to be a little different than that given at Sinai]

Lamentation 2:5-7
The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.
The Lord hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast.
The LORD hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.
Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD.
17. The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.

Hosea 2:11. I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Amos 8:5 & 9,10,11 is also a very interesting passage re: when will the sabbath be gone.

If the oblations, sacrifices, incense, tabernacle, the callings of assembly, the altar and his sanctuary are all prophetically decreed to be cast off and violently taken away, by God himself, does it not follow that when these are cast off and violently taken away, that the sabbaths and feast days that are mentioned along side these would be included as well?

 

[Pacman]

It’s funny how they’re unreliable if they disagree with a certain position.

I maintain that they are unreliable because they contradict scripture and themselves. Also I never used them to defend my position. You did.

As to the Scripture standard, see my previous post.

I did and it’s not there. You are reading your bias into the scripture.

 

[Pacman]

This is also not true.

Isaiah 1:10-14
Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law (Towrah) of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? [Moses]
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
[this Torah seems to be a little different than that given at Sinai]

Lamentation 2:5-7
The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.
The Lord hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast.
The LORD hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.
Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD.
17. The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.

Hosea 2:11. I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Amos 8:5 & 9,10,11 is also a very interesting passage re: when will the sabbath be gone.

If the oblations, sacrifices, incense, tabernacle, the callings of assembly, the altar and his sanctuary are all prophetically decreed to be cast off and violently taken away, by God himself, does it not follow that when these are cast off and violently taken away, that the sabbaths and feast days that are mentioned along side these would be included as well?

Nice attempt but Context! Context! Context! The father is rebuking them for their “show of righteousness” basically living in sin but still putting on a show of keeping the feast and such. Mixed in there you also pointed to the fact that being unable to keep the appointed holy days is part of the judgment that he brings as a result of ———— wait for it ———— NOT KEEPING TORAH!

Dude you are attempting to force your bias on the scriptures. Yah doesn’t change and his standard is and always will be the Torah. It’s the consistent drum beat all throughout the scriptures.

 

[Pacman]

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 NASB
"So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, [2] and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, [3] then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. [4] If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. [5] The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. [6] "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.