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Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C

Pacman said:
Deuteronomy 30:1-6 NASB
"So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, [2] and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, [3] then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. [4] If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. [5] The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. [6] "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
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What is the point of the coming of the Son of God to save mankind?

"and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons,"

Can you define the word TODAY?

Is it the same as this word TODAY?

Hebrews 4:1-10

A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God

1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. a 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,

‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ” b

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” c 5And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.” d

8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, e just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
Nowhere post crucifixion does it say that a Sunday worship is wrong, so there goes your stepmom comparison.

Re: The Sabbath worship you mention as being 70 times, I found the sabbath mentioned 53 times.
Of the 53 times, 43 were pre crucifixion. As we are most likely on the same page pre Crucifixion I wont take much time with these.

Of the 43, only 5 were in regards to an assembly/ synago on the Sabbath and that was for Christ to speak or teach in them. The other 38 times were to identify the day of the week.

Post Crucifixion its listed 10 times. Of the 10 times, 6 were for Paul to share the Gospel/debate and refute in the Synagogue, (3 of the six ended with him either shaking the dust off his feet or separating from them in some way including the mention where he told them to come back next shabbat) 1 was an assembly by the river to share the gospel(the only one that seemed to fit a Shabbat assembly, though not of believers) 1 is instruction that the day you observe on doesnt matter and 2 are to identify the day.

So, as I mentioned in my earlier post, only one mention of the sabbath, post crucifixion, can even be remotely construed to support your claims of Christian Sabbath worship.

Compared to the only times mentioned post Crucifixion that Christ assembled with believers were on a Sunday, (2 times) and every mention of the church assembling was on a Sunday or First day or Lords Day. There’s no mention of the church meeting on a sabbath. (Though it is implied in the passage where Paul says it doesnt matter which day you observe)

The big numbers sound good initially but contextually it fails miserably.
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You make my point exactly. .. the Sabbath is never debated, central to conversation, assumed to be unchanging and a point of reference.

There is nothing that comes even remotely close to indicting a change or reduction in the status of Shabbat, nevermind an actual change in the law. Remember, the whole book of Hevrews is written, not even to abolish the Levitical priesthood but simply make the case Yeshua is our High Priest... no such dissertation altering Shabbat exits. In fact Is. 66 precisely indicates that Shabbat and new moons continue to exist into the new heaven and new earth. And, for the record, unclean food merits fire and sword....

The point, as @Pacman made, Torah is the everlasting unchanging foundation and will of the Father. Shabbat, established in the garden before the fall, will exist after the earth is judged by fire and there is precisely zero Scripture indicating a change...
 
PeteR said:
Remember, the whole book of Hevrews is written, not even to abolish the Levitical priesthood but simply make the case Yeshua is our High Priest...
...
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This doesn't make sense. The Son of God is not the high priest of the Levitical priesthood. The Levitical priesthood has been replaced with the Melchizedek priesthood. If God can change priesthoods He can change Sabbaths.
 
PeteR said:
You make my point exactly. .. the Sabbath is never debated, central to conversation, assumed to be unchanging and a point of reference.

There is nothing that comes even remotely close to indicting a change or reduction in the status of Shabbat, nevermind an actual change in the law. Remember, the whole book of Hevrews is written, not even to abolish the Levitical priesthood but simply make the case Yeshua is our High Priest... no such dissertation altering Shabbat exits. In fact Is. 66 precisely indicates that Shabbat and new moons continue to exist into the new heaven and new earth. And, for the record, unclean food merits fire and sword....

The point, as @Pacman made, Torah is the everlasting unchanging foundation and will of the Father. Shabbat, established in the garden before the fall, will exist after the earth is judged by fire and there is precisely zero Scripture indicating a change...
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There appears to be a change to the application of how the Sabbath is to be perceived. It was once a week. Now I perceive it to be everyday. We are to enter into that perpetual rest. That is the weightier matter that I understand is to be the focus.

I think to some it appears you might be trying to make the Saturday Sabbath the weightier matter.
 
yoderfamily said:
There appears to be a change to the application of how the Sabbath is to be perceived. It was once a week. Now I perceive it to be everyday. We are to enter into that perpetual rest. That is the weightier matter that I understand is to be the focus.

I think to some it appears you might be trying to make the Saturday Sabbath the weightier matter.
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The sabbath that remains spoken about in Hebrews 4 is the millennium the 7th 1000 year day. We aren’t yet entered into it. This does not negate the weekly sabbath...
 
Cap said:
This doesn't make sense. The Son of God is not the high priest of the Levitical priesthood. The Levitical priesthood has been replaced with the Melchizedek priesthood. If God can change priesthoods He can change Sabbaths.
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“He can” is not evidence that he did.

I will leave the fallacy of your priesthood comment alone so as not to get off track from the sabbath.
 
How do you reconcile this with your claim that the sabbath changed? Where is that prophesy?

Amos 3:7 NASB
[7] Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.
 
Pacman said:
The sabbath that remains spoken about in Hebrews 4 is the millennium the 7th 1000 year day. We aren’t yet entered into it. This does not negate the weekly sabbath...
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I have not done an in-depth study on the millennial reign. I do feel like Hebrews 4 could apply today.
Would it be worthwhile to start another thread about the millennial. I would like to see your thots. It seems like there is very little to build from without reading a lot into it.
 
yoderfamily said:
I have not done an in-depth study on the millennial reign. I do feel like Hebrews 4 could apply today.
Would it be worthwhile to start another thread about the millennial. I would like to see your thots. It seems like there is very little to build from without reading a lot into it.
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In other words, persuade me.:cool:
 
The words perpetual and everlasting in reference to the Shabbat are pretty important as well
 
yoderfamily said:
In other words, persuade me.:cool:
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Ex. 31:16-17 is one of several places where the Sabbath command specifically says 'perpetual' and 'forever.' So, however we understand Hebrews 4, it cannot negate the weekly Sabbath.

Christendom historically redefines parts of Hebrews 4 to justify a change in day or negation of Shabbat, but it is done contrary to the 'forever' promises of Elohim.
 
Cap said:
Defining these words would probable be a good idea.
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Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
  1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
    1. ancient time, long time (of past)

    2. (of future)
      1. for ever, always

      2. continuous existence, perpetual

      3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
 
Pacman said:
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
  1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
    1. ancient time, long time (of past)

    2. (of future)
      1. for ever, always

      2. continuous existence, perpetual

      3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
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So @Pacman, you’re saying possibly into next week? At least?
 
Pacman said:
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
  1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
    1. ancient time, long time (of past)

    2. (of future)
      1. for ever, always

      2. continuous existence, perpetual

      3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
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I was speaking in the lines of aion (Greek) and alom (Hebrew). Might mean a different thing as to your interpretation of perpetual and everlasting.
 
Pacman said:
I maintain that they are unreliable because they contradict scripture and themselves. Also I never used them to defend my position. You did.



I did and it’s not there. You are reading your bias into the scripture.
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Both of those statements are decidedly vague. In what way do they contradict scripture? And I’ve yet to be presented with anyone’s corroborating documents from the same periods. All thats been given is someone’s biased commentary on cherrypicked phrases almost criminally taken out of context. Very sloppy research.

I have several times admitted my Christianity bias and why I have it. The difference is that I have shown from Scripture that my bias is founded on actual Scripture, instead of an ideology masquerading as theology that is quite easily disproven from Scripture.
 
Pacman said:
Nice attempt but Context! Context! Context! The father is rebuking them for their “show of righteousness” basically living in sin but still putting on a show of keeping the feast and such. Mixed in there you also pointed to the fact that being unable to keep the appointed holy days is part of the judgment that he brings as a result of ———— wait for it ———— NOT KEEPING TORAH!

Dude you are attempting to force your bias on the scriptures. Yah doesn’t change and his standard is and always will be the Torah. It’s the consistent drum beat all throughout the scriptures.
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1) The point that NOWHERE in Scripture does God ever say that he would change the Sabbath has been proven patently false. The reasons are irrelevant. And its not just one scripture. Instead you are negating and ignoring scripture by your bias instead of trying to understand it and reconcile it.
2) IF you are going on record as saying that the Tabernacle, the Altar, the oblations etc would never go away because God wouldn’t do that because he doesnt change, then I would ask that you be clear on this. Are you saying that these would not be done away with?
3) In Isaiah 1:10, God is giving Torah that distinctly contradicts specific instruction in Torah from Moses. He also does so in Jeremiah 7:21-23. Ignore it if you like, but you are only revealing your bias.
 
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