Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C

[Verifyveritas76]

He! He! That was a very interesting composition of quotes. Allow me to point out that in the majority of those quotes, The quoted authors predominately

1. Affirmed the Ten Commandments
2. Affirmed the origin of the Sabbath

But . . . . In contradiction to the conclusions presented by your author about their intent of affirmations, they plainly wrote a different conclusion about a worship observance. The author of the book just quoted obviously ignored the plain opinions of many of the writers that he quoted.

For example. From Irenaeus’ Fragments

This [custom], of not bending the knee upon Sunday, is a symbol of the resurrection, through which we have been set free, by the grace of Christ, from sins, and from death, which has been put to death under Him. Now this custom took its rise from apostolic times, as the blessed Irenaeus, the martyr and bishop of Lyons, declares in his treatise On Easter, in which he makes mention of Pentecost also; upon which [feast] we do not bend the knee, because it is of equal significance with the Lord's day, for the reason already alleged concerning it.

From “Gad the Seer,” commentary by Ken Johnson

Church Fathers Ignatius, who wrote his epistles before John wrote the book of Revelation, said this about the Law: “Christians do not observe the Sabbath but the Lord's day and some people denied that Jesus resurrected.”

Ignatius, Trallians 9 The other church fathers said they were all taught the same thing by the apostles. “Christians do not offer sacrifices, nor abstain from meats, nor observe the Sabbath or new moon festivals, nor become circumcised like the Jews do.”

Mathetes, Epistle to Diognetus 3,4 “Christians follow the customs of their native lands in regard to marriage, food, clothing, and conduct. They marry and have children, but they never have abortions. They obey all the laws of their country.”

Mathetes, Epistle to Diognetus 5 “Christians meet together on Sunday.”

Justin Martyr, First Apology 67 “Christians live like all other Gentiles, not observing the festivals, Sabbaths, new moon, or the rite of circumcision.”

Justin Martyr, Dialogue 10 “Christ did away with the entire law of Moses, and circumcision.”

Justin Martyr, Dialogue 11 “Circumcision, food laws, and Sabbaths were for a teaching. Circumcision began with Abraham and the Sabbath and the rest began with Moses.”

Justin Martyr, Dialogue 19 to 23 “The Law started with Moses and ended with John the Baptist.”

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4.4 “Jesus fulfilled the Law and prophets, then did away with it, and gave a new covenant.”

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4.34 “Paul in Galatians teaches that the Law was given by God, then fulfilled and done away with in Christ.”

Tertullian, Marcion 1.20 “Galatians proves the Mosaic Law is fully abolished.”

Tertullian, Marcion 5.2 “Circumcision was temporary.”

Tertullian, Jews 1.3 “Sabbath was temporary.”

Tertullian, Jews 1.4 “Sacrifices were temporary.”

Tertullian, Jews 1.5 “Christians worship on Sunday. This has nothing to do with paganism.”

Tertullian, Nations 1.13 “The rite of circumcision began with Abraham and was discontinued by Jesus.” Origen, Against Celsus 1: 22

From Dionysius
II.

• From the same epistle.

We passed this holy Lord's day, in which we read your letter, from the constant reading of which we shall be able to draw admonition, even as from the reading of the former one you sent us written through Clement.



Ecclesiastical History, V. XXIV, 11-18. (pp. 509-513)

Among them too Irenaeus, writing in the name of the Christians whose leader he was in Gaul, though he recommends that the mystery of the Lord's resurrection be observed only on the Lord's day, yet nevertheless exhorts Victor suitably and at length not to excommunicate whole churches of God for following a tradition of ancient custom,

 

[Verifyveritas76]

From a pagan governor to the Emperor. AD 111-112

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god,and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.
Early christian writings.com/Pliny the younger to Trajan

Tatian Harmony of the Gospel

59 And they rose in that hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered, and those that were with them, saying, Truly our Lord is risen, and hath appeared to Simon. And they related what happened in the way, and how they knew him when he brake the bread. Neither believed they that also.

SECTION LIV.

54 1 And while they talked together, the evening of that day arrived which was the First-day;and the doors were shut where the disciples were, because of the fear of the 2 Jews; and Jesus came and stood among them, and said unto them, Peace be with you: I am he; fear not. But they were agitated, and became afraid, and supposed that they 3 saw a spirit. Jesus said unto them, Why are ye agitated? and why do thoughts rise 4 Arabic, in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that I am he: feel me, and know that a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having that. 5 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his feet and his side. 6 And they were until this time unbelieving, from their joy and their wonder. He 7 said unto them, Have ye anything here to eat? And they gave him a portion of broiled fish and of honey. And he took it, and ate before them. 8 And he said unto them, These are the sayings which I spake unto you, while I was with you, that everything must be fulfilled, which is written in the law of 9 Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.Then opened he their heart, that they might understand the scriptures; and he said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it is necessary that the Messiah suffer, and rise from among the dead on the third day; and that repentance unto the forgiveness of sins be preached in his name among all the peoples; and the beginning shall be from Jerusalem. And ye shall be witnesses of that. And I send unto you the promise of my Father. And when the disciples heard that, they were glad. And Jesus said unto them again, Peace be with you: as my Father hath sent me, I also send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit: 16 and if ye forgive sins to any man, they shall be forgiven him; and if ye retain them against any man, they shall be retained.

17 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Thama, was not there with the disciples when Jesus came. The disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen our Lord. But he said unto them, If I do not see in his hands the places of the nails, and put on them my fingers, and pass my hand over his side, I will not believe.

19 And after eight days, on the next First-day, the disciples were assembled again within,and Thomas with them. And Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood Arabic, in the midst, and said unto them, Peace be with you. And he said to Thomas, Bring hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and spread it on my side: and be not unbelieving, but believing. Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus said unto him, Now since thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen me, and have believed.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

From the Preaching of Peter. (Extant but quoted from by Clement of Alexandria 182-202 AD

Again our principal source of knowledge is Clement of Alexandria, who makes a series of quotations from it.

Clement of Alexandria, Strom.i. 29. 182. And in the Preaching of Peter you may find the Lord called 'Law and Word'.

Twice again he quotes this phrase.

Neither worship ye him as do the Jews, for they, who suppose that they alone know God, do not know him, serving angels and archangels, the month and the moon: and if no moon be seen, they do not celebrate what is called the first sabbath, nor keep the new moon, nor the days of unleavened bread, nor the feast (of tabernacles?), nor the great day (of atonement).

Then he adds the finale (colophon) of what is required: So then do ye, learning in a holy and righteous sort that which we deliver unto you, observe it, worshipping God through Christ in a new way. For we have found in the Scriptures, how the Lord saith: Behold, I make with you a new covenant, not as the covenant with your fathers in mount Horeb. He hath made a new one with us: for the waysof the Greeks and Jews are old, but we are they that worship him in a new way in a third generation (orrace), evenChristians.[2]

Ignatius to the Magnesians. 105-115 AD

CHAP, VIII.--CAUTION AGAINST FALSE DOCTRINES.

Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace.For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus.On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son,who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him.

CHAPTER IX.--LET US LIVE WITH CHRIST.

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master--how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Epistle of Barnabus

CHAPTER XV.--THE FALSE AND THE TRUE SABBATH.

Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, "And sanctify ye the Sabbath of the Lordwith clean hands and a pure heart." And He says in another place, "If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them." The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: "And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it." Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, "Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years." Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. "And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, "Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart." If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens.

THE VERCELLI ACTS Acts of Peter 150-200 [Note: I am personally unsure of the author of this document. It is no doubt pseudographia and written by a professing believer, I do not believe that this is an eye witness account, but more likely a compilation from sources the author trusted. That being said, it definitely reveals a normalcy bias of Sabbath vrs. Sunday]

For they had in mind also how that Paul had oftentimes contended with the doctors of the Jews and confuted them, saying: Christ, upon whom your fathers laid hands, abolished their sabbaths and fasts and holy-days and circumcision, and the doctrines of men and the rest of the traditions he did abolish.But the brethren lamented (and adjured) Paul by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, that he should not be absent above a year, saying: We know thy love for thy brethren; forget not us when thou art come thither, neither begin to forsake us, as little children without a mother. And when they besought him long with tears, there came a sound from heaven, and a great voice saying: Paul the servant of God is chosen to minister all the days of his life: by the hands of Nero the ungodly and wicked man shall he be perfected before your eyes. And a very great fear fell upon the brethren because of the voice which came from heaven: and they were confirmed yet more in the faith.

VII. Now the report was noised through the city unto the brethren that were dispersed, because of Simon, that he might show him to be a deceiver and a persecutor of good men. All the multitude therefore ran together to see the apostle of the Lord stay (himself, or the brethren) on Christ. And on the first day of the week when the multitude was assembled to see Peter, Peter began to say with a loud voice:

 

[Verifyveritas76]

From Epistula Apostelorum

We said unto him: Now sayest thou unto us: I will come; and how sayest thou: He that sent me is he that shall come? Then said he to us: I am wholly in the Father and my Father is in me. Then said we to him: Wilt thou indeed forsake us until thy coming? Where can we find a master? But he answered and said unto us: Know ye not, then, that like as until now I have been here, so also was I there, with him that sent me? And we said to him: Lord, is it then possible that thou shouldest be both here and there? But he answered us: I am wholly in the Father and the Father in me, because of (in regard of) the likeness of the form and the power and the fullness and the light and the full measure and the voice. I am the word, I am become unto him a thing, that is to say (word gone) of the thought, fulfilled in the type (likeness); I have into the Ogdoad (eighth number), which is the Lord's day.

From the First Apology of Justin Martyr 150-160 AD

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place,and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Justin Martyr's discourse with Trypho

CHAPTER XXIV -- THE CHRISTIANS' CIRCUMCISION FAR MORE EXCELLENT.

"Now, sirs," I said, "it is possible for us to show how the eighth day possessed a certain mysterious import, which the seventh day did not possess, and which was promulgated by God through these rites.But lest I appear now to diverge to other subjects, understand what I say: the blood of that circumcision is obsolete, and we trust in the bloOd of salvation; there is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will--as was declared above--with knives of stone; that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come, let us go to the light of the Lord; for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob. Come, all nations; let us gather ourselves together at Jerusalem, no longer plagued by war for the sins of her people. 'For I was manifest to them that sought Me not; I was found of them that asked not for Me;' He exclaims by Isaiah: 'I said, Behold Me, unto nations which were not called by My name. I have spread out My hands all the day unto a disobedient and gainsaying people, which walked in a way that was not good, but after their own sins. It is a people that rovoketh Me to my face.'

Chapter XXVII

But you are a people hard-hearted and without understanding, both blind and lame, children in whom is no faith, as He Himself says, honouring Him only with your lips, far from Him in your hearts, teaching doctrines that are your own and not His. For, tell me, did God wish the priests to sin when they offer the sacrifices on the Sabbaths? or those to sin, who are circumcised and do circumcise on the Sabbaths; since He commands that on the eighth day--even though it happen to be a Sabbath--those who are born shall be always circumcised?or could not the infants be operated upon one day previous or one day subsequent to the Sabbath, if He knew that it is a sinful act upon the Sabbaths? Or why did He not teach those--who are called righteous and pleasing to Him, who lived before Moses and Abraham, who were not circumcised in their foreskin, and observed no Sabbaths--to keep these institutions?"

CHAPTER XXIX -- CHRIST IS USELESS TO THOSE WHO OBSERVE THE LAW.

"Let us glorify God, all nations gathered together; for He has also visited us. Let us glorify Him by the King of glory, by the Lord of hosts. For He has been gracious towards the Gentiles also; and our sacrifices He esteems more grateful than yours. What need, then, have I of circumcision, who have been witnessed to by God? What need have I of that other baptism, who have been baptized with the Holy Ghost? I think that while I mention this, I would persuade even those who are possessed of scanty intelligence. For these words have neither been prepared by me, nor embellished by the art of man; but David sung them, Isaiah preached them, Zechariah proclaimed them, and Moses wrote them. Are you acquainted with them, Trypho? They are contained in your Scriptures, or rather not yours, but ours. For we believe them; but you, though you read them, do not catch the spirit that is in them. Be not offended at, or reproach us with, the bodily uncircumcision with which God has created us; and think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others; and the priests, as on other days, so on this, are ordered to offer sacrifices; and there are so many righteous men who have performed none of these legal ceremonies, and yet are witnessed to by God Himself.

CHAPTER XLI -- THE OBLATION OF FINE FLOUR WAS A FIGURE OF THE EUCHARIST.

. . . . . The command of circumcision, again, bidding [them] always circumcise the children on the eighth day, was a type of the true circumcision, by which we are circumcised from deceit and iniquity through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, [namely through] our Lord Jesus Christ. For the first day after the Sabbath, remaining the first of all the days, is called, however, the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and [yet] remains the first.

CHAPTER CXXXVIII -- NOAH IS A FIGURE OF CHRIST, WHO HAS REGENERATED US BY WATER, AND FAITH, AND WOOD: [i.e., the Cross.]

"You know, then, sirs," I said, "that God has said in Isaiah to Jerusalem: 'I saved thee in the deluge of Noah.' By this which God said was meant that the mystery of saved men appeared in the deluge. For righteous Noah, along with the other mortals at the deluge, i.e., with his own wife, his three sons and their wives, being eight in number, were a symbol of the eighth day, wherein Christ appeared when He rose from the dead, for ever the first in power.For Christ, being the first-born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, and faith, and wood, containing the mystery of the cross; even as Noah was saved by wood when he rode over the waters with his household. Accordingly, when the prophet says, 'I saved thee in the times of Noah,' as I have already remarked, he addresses the people who are equally faithful to God, and possess the same signs. For when Moses had the rod in his hands, he led your nation through the sea. And you believe that this was spoken to your nation only, or to the land. But the whole earth, as the Scripture says, was inundated, and the water rose in height fifteen cubits above all the mountains: so that it is evident this was not spoken to the land, but to the people who obeyed Him: for whom also He had before prepared a resting-place in Jerusalem, as was previously demonstrated by all the symbols of the deluge; I mean, that by water, faith, and wood, those who are afore-prepared, and who repent of the sins which they have committed, shall escape from the impending judgment of God.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The existence of the Didache was unknown until its discovery by Philotheos Bryennios—a Greek Orthodox metropolitan bishop of Nicomedia—inside a monastery in Turkey in 1873 CE and later published in 1883 CE. The document was located inside of the Codex Hierosolymitanus, has no date itself, and lacks any mention of external events that could indicate a timeframe. Additionally, there are no prescribed authors. Therefore, the dating of the Didache is difficult, and since its emergence has caused controversy. There is, Those who like it for a mid to late first-century dating, while others contend for as late as the 3rd or 4th century CE. It's also a good thing to point out that all of the fragments and the copies found have alot of differences, referenced to as small differences, meaning no two copies are the same.

Here’s a different comparison of the Didache

Jonathan Draper writes (Gospel Perspectives, v. 5, p. 269):

Since it was discovered in a monastery in Constantinople and published by P. Bryennios in 1883, the Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles has continued to be one of the most disputed of early Christian texts. It has been depicted by scholars as anything between the original of the Apostolic Decree (c. 50 AD) and a late archaising fiction of the early third century. It bears no date itself, nor does it make reference to any datable external event, yet the picture of the Church which it presents could only be described as primitive, reaching back to the very earliest stages of the Church's order and practice in a way which largely agrees with the picture presented by the NT, while at the same time posing questions for many traditional interpretations of this first period of the Church's life. Fragments of the Didache were found at Oxyrhyncus (P. Oxy 1782) from the fourth century and in coptic translation (P. Lond. Or. 9271) from 3/4th century. Traces of the use of this text, and the high regard it enjoyed, are widespread in the literature of the second and third centuries especially in Syria and Egypt. It was used by the compilator of the Didascalia (C 2/3rd) and the Liber Graduun (C 3/4th), as well as being absorbed in toto by the Apostolic Constitutions (C c. 3/4th, abbreviated as Ca) and partially by various Egyptian and Ethiopian Church Orders, after which it ceased to circulate independently. Athanasius describes it as 'appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of goodness' [Festal Letter 39:7]. Hence a date for the Didache in its present form later than the second century must be considered unlikely, and a date before the end of the first century probable.

Draper states in a footnote (op. cit., p. 284), "A new consensus is emerging for a date c. 100 AD."

Stephen J. Patterson comments on the dating of the Didache (The Gospel of Thomas and Jesus, p. 173): "Of course today, when the similarities between the Didache and Barnabas, or the Shepherd of Hermas, are no longer taken as proof that the Didache is literarily dependent upon these documents, the trend is to date the Didache much earlier, at least by the end of the first century or the beginning of the second, and in the case of Jean-P. Audet, as early as 50-70 C.E."

Udo Schnelle makes the following remark about the Didache (The History and Theology of the New Testament Writings, p. 355): "The Didache means by 'the gospel' (8.2; 11.3; 15.3, 4) the Gospel of Matthew; thus the Didache, which originated about 110 CE, documents the emerging authority of the one great Gospel."

Stevan Davies comments on the Didache (Jesus the Healer, p. 175):
"The Didache is a text that gives instruction on how a Christian community should treat itinerant Christian prophets. It was written sometime in the late first or early second century and gives good evidence for a structured church's shift in orientation away from spirit-possession.



​

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Here’s my point with the Didache and most of the dating on a lot of these other documents. The guys dating them are often using a post Apostle dating for the Gospels themselves and then basing the dates of other documents on that faulty premise, resulting in a late date for some of these works such as the Didache.

No doubt they are well meaning and trying to be conservative in their dating to attempt to retain credibility in the academic world, but . . .

 

[Nikud]

. In contradiction to the conclusions presented by your author about their intent of affirmations, they plainly wrote a different conclusion about a worship observance. The author of the book just quoted obviously ignored the plain opinions of many of the writers that he quoted

I disagree I actually think that the author , not my author, pointed out very well that they flip flop on their beliefs and contradicted themselves alot. I think you might ne overlooking this because parts of what they justify your beleifs. Once again I point out that the fact that they got things wrong, like about polygamy shows that just because they were disciples or disciples of disciples of the Apostles doesn't mean they are always correct. Proximity to to righteousness doesn't make one righteous or the authority of The Way.

They are Works of men that are in constant contridition with themselves. They are the roots of the modern church. I fully understand why the church is in such dire straights. Root rot has been slowly killing it from the practically the begining. After all they were bringing in elements of paganism into the Way. Look at eightday in pagan beleifs and Tertguian about which numbers and months that are special which all have pagan sabbaths. Sorry I've read to much written by the Founding fathers to beleive they are the example to follow instead of scripture.

 

[yoderfamily]

No it’s loving him. Worship loosely means “making yourself low” part of what scripture tells us to do is worship but obeying God is not always worship...

Just a side note what we commonly refer to as “praise and worship” songs are usually just praise songs because most of them have almost nothing to do with making ourselves “low before him”

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition

1. to bow down
   1. (Qal) to bow down
      
      
   2. (Hiphil) to depress (fig)
      
      
   3. (Hithpael)
      1. to bow down, prostrate oneself
         1. before superior in homage
            
            
         2. before God in worship
            
            
         3. before false gods
            
            
         4. before angel

Usage by Word
worship (48), down (41), bowed (32), worshiped (31), bow (25), prostrated(13), homage (5), worshiping (3), bowing (2), paid (2), prostrate (2), worships (2), bows (1), did (1), lie (1), prostrating (1), weighs (1)

Interesting. I had looked at worship more like adoration

 

[Nikud]

The Julian calendar was established in 45 B.C. Like the calendar of the Roman Republic before it, the early Julian calendar had an eight day week! Days of the week on the Republican and early Julian calendars were assigned letters: A through H. All early Julian calendars (fasti) still in existence date from 63 B.C. to A.D. 37.

Some of The Early Church founders were trying to adjust Christianity to the Roman Calander they used and distance them selves from those "Christ murdering Jews" ignorant of the fact that their sins during their lifes, makes them just as guilty for the death of Yeshua as the Priest who brought false charges, those who chose not to set him free, the Romans who carried out the execution and all the rest of us who evered sinned.

 

[cnystrom]

Come on, we're called to suffering and labor and to carry our crosses. There's no way we're in any kind of rest yet. He literally calls the world a harvest and us laborers.

I believe the rest spoken of in Hebrews 4 is more along the lines of the rest spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 11:28-29 and not a literal day of the week.

Verse 8 speaks against the "rest" of the previous Sabbath as being ineffective. v9 is proclaiming a new kind of Sabbath. One that really works. One that provides true rest.

We "rest" because it is not our work that gets us there. Jesus has done the work.

This is the kind of rest (sabbath) that we need to make every effort to try to enter (v11).

Since Jesus has done the work for us, he is therefore "the great high priest" of verse 14.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I disagree I actually think that the author , not my author, pointed out very well that they flip flop on their beliefs and contradicted themselves alot. I think you might ne overlooking this because parts of what they justify your beleifs. Once again I point out that the fact that they got things wrong, like about polygamy shows that just because they were disciples or disciples of disciples of the Apostles doesn't mean they are always correct. Proximity to to righteousness doesn't make one righteous or the authority of The Way.

This is a very remarkable statement. The modern doctrine of the change of the Sabbath was unknown in Tertullian's time. Had it been in existence, there could be no doubt that in the words last quoted he was aiming at it a heavy blow; for the very thing which he asserts Christ's adversary, Satan, would have had him do, that modern first-day writers assert he did do in consecrating another day instead of adding to the sanctity of his Father's Sabbath.

A flip-flop would necessitate a change in their stated beliefs. This guy is trying to assert that the sabbath wasn’t changed from the 7th to the 1st in Tertullian’s time 180-220 Ad.

This assertion should be plainly refuted in the passages I posted this morning which were mostly preceding Tertullian’s time of writing. If that weren’t enough, the Essay by Tertullian below should account for interesting reading and show your author to either be a poor researcher, a plagerist, or deliberately promoting a false narrative.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian08.html
Tertullian’s Answer to the Jews.
CHAP. IV.--OF THE OBSERVANCE OF THE

SABBATH.

It follows, accordingly, that, in so far as the abolition of carnal circumcision and of the old law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary.

For what its worth, I have found consistency in all of the writers I’ve studied to date where they both affirm the origin of the Sabbath as Moses did at Creation, affirm the giving and keeping of the Ten Commandments but do not in any way support the observance of a Jewish Sabbath post crucifixion.

These are not mutually exclusive perspectives, or, if they are, then a Jewish believer must surely take up his cross = be cut off from Israel, and follow Christ. This is what I’ve found without exception in the early church writings.

As to my beliefs, I do not espouse studying these documents because they support my beliefs. Rather, when I was totally willing to go to a 7th day Sabbath, I researched everything and could find no proof supporting this observance post Christ and so founded my current beliefs upon what I could prove, though it was contrary to what I was told the early church did by all the TO guys I read. Invariably, the assertions made by the TO guys about this were unsupportable by example and Scripture.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The Julian calendar was established in 45 B.C. Like the calendar of the Roman Republic before it, the early Julian calendar had an eight day week! Days of the week on the Republican and early Julian calendars were assigned letters: A through H. All early Julian calendars (fasti) still in existence date from 63 B.C. to A.D. 37.

Some of The Early Church founders were trying to adjust Christianity to the Roman Calander they used and distance them selves from those "Christ murdering Jews" ignorant of the fact that their sins during their lifes, makes them just as guilty for the death of Yeshua as the Priest who brought false charges, those who chose not to set him free, the Romans who carried out the execution and all the rest of us who evered sinned.

This is a misdirection. The principle of the eighth day existed in scripture since creation, was exemplified even more in the Mosaic Law and prophecied by the prophets which Christ simply fulfilled and implemented and the early church recognized and observed.

Neither the Gnostics (that I have seen) or the Christians associated the mystery of the eighth day with the Julian Calendar. Rather the Christians always refer to the Old Testament when explaining it other than for the Resurrection.

 

[Nikud]

This is a misdirection. The principle of the eighth day existed in scripture since creation, was exemplified even more in the Mosaic Law and prophecied by the prophets which Christ simply fulfilled and implemented and the early church recognized and observed.

Neither the Gnostics (that I have seen) or the Christians associated the mystery of the eighth day with the Julian Calendar. Rather the Christians always refer to the Old Testament when explaining it other than for the Resurrection.

There are several later writings in which it was brought up about the reconciliation of the eigthday the and Julian calender and the early church founders trying to just that. If you want when I have the time ill look up and send you the discourse about some of the early church founders trying to reconcile the Julian Calander with the eigthday.

I'm not disputing that the eight day is mentioned inscripture, specifically in the last of the great feasts: the feast of booths (Leviticus 23:33 onwards), and circumcision on the eighth day after birth. The priests and Nazirites also had seven days of cleansing before offering sacrifices specifically on the eighth day (Numbers 6, Leviticus 8:33). The early church fathers also attached the significance of to 8 on the Ark, who were “saved through water” to teach water baptism for salvation as well and how we now have a spiritual circumcision of the heart instead of a physical as a new teaching despite it being written in Deut.

I do believe the eight holds some significance but not as a replacement Sabbath, but the related to the new beginning after the seven years of tribulation and in connection to understanding Daniels prophecy and physical Israel's repentance and acceptance of the messiah. For example;

John 20:24-27

24 One of the Twelve, Thomas called the Twin, was not with them when Yeshua came. 25 The other disciples were saying to him, “We’ve seen the Lord!”

But he replied to them, “Unless I see the nail prints in His hands, and put my finger into the mark of the nails, and put my hand in His side, I will never believe!”

26 Eight days later the disciples were again inside, and Thomas was with them. Yeshua comes, despite the locked doors. He stood in their midst and said, “Shalom Aleichem!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe!”

He didn't believe what was being told to him like Israel didn't.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The early Church Fathers did exactly what Yeshua called out the Pharisees for doing.

Mark 7:8

Having left behind the commandment of God, you hold on to the tradition of men.”

There's no difference between what the Early Church Fathers did and what the Pharisees did. There's no difference in the writings of the Early Church Fathers and Talmud.

I would like to add that I see the Talmud, as great source for getting a look at ancient Hebrew cultural beliefs and Etymology of the Hebrew language. There is a lot of wisdom there but also there are some wrong teachings

The same goes for the writings of the Early Church Fathers. Its great for seeing the culture that gave birth to the Catholic Church and to know where some modern traditions come from (most even those espoused by the Early Church Fathers are Pharisaical teachings just with a Yeshua wrapping). But those traditions are no more biblical instruction than the Talmud is. Traditions are good if they help one grow in faith but not if they conflict with Gods instructions.

We can't even say that the writings of the early Church fathers we're inspired by the Rauch HaKodesh because instructions that conflict with the instructions of The Father don't come from the Ruach. The Father, Son, and Ruach are one they are all in agreeance. If not then its not the Holy Spirit. If one is going to argue that The Holy Spirit can conflict with the Father or Son then your saying God is indecisive at best at worst that they're Separate entities with opposing wills, which would be saying Scripture is wrong when it says God is one.

Just be glad you didn't grow up keeping Romani tradition. 4 days after the new moon is the Sabbath and every 7th day until the new moon is a Sabbath. Why, because the moon didn't come into existence till the 4th day so that would make the 4th day after the new moon the seventh day. Everyone will find something that justifies their belief and cling to it.

I'm not going to change your mind, and your not going to change my mind because I see what they are saying as directly in conflict with God's instruction and the only man (who just so happens to also be Elohim) who I would listen to saying Sunday is the new Sabbath didn't say that but that He was Lord of the Sabbath. So I'm going to bow out of this part of the discussion.

Back to your original post:

These psuedo brethren were also attempting to ostracise Gentile Believers who weren’t Torah observant based on a Torah principle found in Exodus 34:15. This is the same principle that Peter wrestled with personally in chapter 10 and was bludgeoned about the head and shoulders with in Chapter 11:2,3 by those of the circumcision. They didnt back off until Peter used the “God told me too” trump card for their legitimate Torah objections.

The weren't Torah observant. They were following tradition. Exodus 34:15 is a warning to safe guard against being corrupted not a biblical instruction to not eat with Gentiles or enter their homes. Not a legitimate Torah objection. Peter was wrestling with tradition not Torah observance. Paul called Peter out later on his hypocrisy and being afraid of criticism for not following traditions, what the Pharisee called the whole law, as in that it completed God's Law. As for the circumcision, Torah says circumcision of the Heart for Salvation, the physical is not for Salvation and doesn't say that, its for those born into the covenant to show they are in covenant. Not for those grafted in. Missed the eight day mark, and didn't make the cut. The belief that you had to be physically circumcised for Salvation is a tradition. In Acts 15 They were trying to get Paul and Barnabas to teach salvation through Torah they were wrong that's tradition. Ezekiel 14 teaches relationship with God, we see this with Abraham as well, the Torah and Prophets show that salvation comes through relationship with God, before Yeshua it was harder to have that relationship and after Him only He has the authority to intercede on our behalf and our relationship with the Son is how we have a relationship with the Father, because He is the Tabernacle in the flesh. Paul let them know all are saved by the grace of the Yeshua. The judgement was to not trouble new believers beyond their salvation issues. Acts 19 "Therefore, I judge not to trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God." Difference between milk and meat. I am inclined to say that I believe Galatians 2, Acts 15 and 24 are all talking about the same people. Who were teaching circumcision for salvation, a tradition not a Torah law. It like Christians who teach water baptism for salvation. Tradition, as false teaching.

Galatians 2:4

Now this issue came up because of false brothers secretly brought in (who slipped in to spy out our freedom in Messiah, in order to bring us into bondage).

Yeah they were false brothers who held traditions above the word of God and spreading a false teaching. Also would like to point out that brackets and parenthesis mark commentary not in the original manuscripts. Not the authors words. We should look carefully at the parts when someone adds to the word, it may have a motive behind it.

I've noticed how you slipped in Torah observant instead of certain men like the King James says or circumcised believers as other interpretations use and bludgeoned....not exactly what was expressed, I don't know if you noticed but your bias is hanging out.

For me I don't see the Law as bondage. I find comfort in the fact my life is easier in submitting to His instructions according to Torah because I don't have to interrupt scripture to justify not doing something or why I can do something. I simple do what is clearly instructed in scripture to do and don't do what it says not to do to the best of my abilities. I say the best of my abilities, sometimes I let my flesh get to me but I repent and try to make amends, and I don't go out looking for was to obey Torah instructions that I don't need to. It's not hard to do if you actually want to submit to God. It doesn't restrict important things in my life. I'm free to just praise and worship Him, Free to work for the advancement of His Kingdom, Free to have a family (as large as I want), Free to live my life according to His will. Its easier to discern if its the Rauch guiding me or if something else trying to lead me astray. I've been able to start removing the man made Hedges of tradition that make a labyrinth that had imprisoned me chasing my own tail. That's what the Law of Freedom does, it removes the obstacles that keep you separated from Him.

So much of what is pointed to as teachings against Torah on the forum is actually teachings against traditions that go against Torah or divisive traditions. I'm starting to seriously doubt if some of yall actually know what is Torah and what is just tradition.

 

[Cap]

Just be glad you didn't grow up keeping Romani tradition. 4 days after the new moon is the Sabbath and every 7th day until the new moon is a Sabbath. Why, because the moon didn't come into existence till the 4th day so that would make the 4th day after the new moon the seventh day. Everyone will find something that justifies their belief and cling to it.

This is very interesting to me. It is also interesting to me that any serious discussion about when the weekly sabbath actually is doesn't include the possibility of a lunar sabbath. And why any Torah believing person doesn't seriously consider it, the plain reading of scripture clearly points in that direction. I can see were God intentionally confusing the idea of a weekly sabbath just to keep people from worshiping a man made calendar.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Bad translation because,
Leviticus 19:18
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself I am the Lord.

Yeshua was constantly connecting different scriptures together to show that His message was there all along.

Not a new, but unused or novel would be a better translation. The "new" translation makes Yeshua a liar because it's not new. Then it makes Him a sinner for adding to the word of God, if your of the beleif that as the son He could change the word so it's not a sin then you've made Him a hypocrite for doing what He called out the Pharisee for doing and showed that even God couldn't keep His own word and had to change it making God unjust for telling Israel to keep it.

I see things a bit different here.
I have children that sometimes want to believe they are my equal....so I am kinda used to bumping into thinking that equates non equals.
The scriptures were written by prophets who spoke for YHWH. Yeshua said in John 12:49 49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Hebrews 1: 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Neither Yeshua nor The Father could be hypocrites even if they both did what pharisees were condemned for, because this is to assume that the pharisees were equal to YHWH or the one speaking His words, Yeshua.

Then too the commandment in Leviticus is also from what I can see a different commandment because levitucus is basically the golden rule....love your neighbor as yourself. There is to me a difference because the example of service and sacrificial love from the Father in giving His son....and the love of the Son in laying down His life goes way beyond any example predating this.
Because it was a new and perfect example, the command to emulate Him is a new command.
Finally, I don't see how a new command from the same source of all power and authority that did not contradict, but only raised the bar, could ever make YHWH unjust, or the previous commands too much.

I have a child who likes to try and define for me what I mean by what I said. It certainly annoys me because I am the only one that can explain what I meant by the words I spoke.
Yeshua bridged any language barrier by showing the intent and purpose of the law and instruction of YHWH.
The signs and wonders proving he was Authorized to speak for YHWH.

I've gotta run. I hope these pieced together thoughts aren't too scattered to understand.

 

[Nikud]

This is very interesting to me. It is also interesting to me that any serious discussion about when the weekly sabbath actually is doesn't include the possibility of a lunar sabbath. And why any Torah believing person doesn't seriously consider it, the plain reading of scripture clearly points in that direction. I can see were God intentionally confusing the idea of a weekly sabbath just to keep people from worshiping a man made calendar.

Since you mention it if someone is following a non Romani Lunar Sabbath, then then the new moon is a reset or Zero day (hidden day) and the Sabbath would always fall on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of a given lunar month.

I've come across these arguments:

It is asserted that no Sabbath in scripture can be shown to occur on any day other than an 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th of a lunar cycle. As only about 15% of Gregorian-style Sabbaths fall on those days, this is taken as corroborative evidence for lunar Sabbaths.

A) There are 20 Stories in scripture that refer to the Sabbath, but without dating it in terms of a day of the month.

R) There are only two stories in all of scripture that mention Sabbath in a context that can be certainly dated in relation to a day of the lunar month. These are the first giving of the manna and the death and resurrection of Jesus. This to me shows that the Lunar cycle was a sign to point us to Yeshua not to calculate the Sabbath.

A2) Sabbath falls on the 15th of three Biblical months in a row (the three months beginning with the Exodus from Egypt). As moon cycles are only 29.5 days long, the Sabbath could not fall three times in a row on the 15th unless the Sabbath was lunar based. Some studies indicate that Exodus 19 is an example of a month where Sabbaths correlate well with the lunar calendar. The argument runs like this: “Israel left Egypt the night of Abib 15. Three months later, on the very same day, the 15th, they rested before the mount. (Deuteronomy 16:1, Numbers 33:3; Exodus 19:1-2)

R2) But when we read Exodus 19 we find that the 15th, and 16th were days of cleaning up and getting ready for a meeting with the Holy God on the 17th. If one of these three dates must be chosen for a Sabbath from the narrative, better the 17th. But really, there is not enough data to make a Sabbath of any day. The argument, as worded above, might lead the reader to think that the Bible associates the 15th with “rest”, but the passage rather associates it with “camping.” The word Shabbat was never used. As a preparation day, the 15th and 16th do not seem like Sabbaths.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD. 10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

A3) Ezekiel 46:1 Says the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looks toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened. The reasoning goes like this: If the gate is shut on the six working days and open on the new moon, then the new moon can not be one of the six working days. And since it is not one of the six working days, it must not be part of the week.

R3)The fault lies in the fact that the verse is a perfectly natural way to write even if the new moons did occur on various days of the week. The inference that lunar Sabbath proponents make is stretched. It would be similar in character to reading “God loves a cheerful giver” and concluding that God doesn’t love uncheerful givers. Plus the first day of the week began before the moon was created independent of the lunar cycle. Genesis 1:16-19 ...' Elohim made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And Elohim set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and Elohim saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.'

My main argument is The 7th day is what the Lord said. There are slight differences in the teachings out there concerning the lunar sabbath, the core of the teaching seems to be constant. And that is the weekly sabbath is determined by the moon and occurs on the same days every month. These dates being the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th. So the number of days between the 'sabbath' on the 29th day and the 8th day is not seven days, but either 8 days or 9 days, depending on how many days they pick for that month, which is either 30 or 29. Genesis 2:2-3 ...'And on the seventh day Elohim ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And Elohim blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which Elohim created and made.'

In Leviticus 23:15-16, we find the specific instructions for how the Feast of Weeks is to be calculated. "And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven Sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath shall ye number fifty days."

The 7 day weekly Sabbath and the Lunar sabbath side by side:

WEEKLY 7 DAY SABBATH: "7 Sabbaths" X 7 days = 49 days. PLUS "day after last Sabbath" = 50 DAYS!

LUNAR SABBATH: At least one sabbath cycle will have 9 days, so 6 sabbaths X 7 days = 42 days + 9 days for 1 sabbath PLUS "day after last Sabbath" = 52 DAYS!

 

[Nikud]

Neither Yeshua nor The Father could be hypocrites even if they both did what pharisees were condemned for, because this is to assume that the pharisees were equal to YHWH or the one speaking His words, Yeshua.

It would be to assume that Elohim or Yeshua made the Pharisee their equals by committing the same acts they condemned the pharisee for. Which is why Yeshua didn't do it.

Yeshua bridged any language barrier by showing the intent and purpose of the law and instruction of YHWH.
The signs and wonders proving he was Authorized to speak for YHWH.

I agree that He showed the intent and purpose of His Law. He didn't change it though or make a new one like some think.

Finally, I don't see how a new command from the same source of all power and authority that did not contradict, but only raised the bar, could ever make YHWH unjust, or the previous commands too much.

He said do not add to His word. If He was here to be the perfect example and added to His word then He broke His own words and was not the perfect Example. Its nothing to do with His authority it has to do with His perfect nature.

Also if I say my Name is Kevin , Hello my name is Kevin, Kevin is my Name, I am called Kevin they are examples of saying the same thing different ways not a new way each time.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I believe the rest spoken of in Hebrews 4 is more along the lines of the rest spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 11:28-29 and not a literal day of the week.

Verse 8 speaks against the "rest" of the previous Sabbath as being ineffective. v9 is proclaiming a new kind of Sabbath. One that really works. One that provides true rest.

We "rest" because it is not our work that gets us there. Jesus has done the work.

This is the kind of rest (sabbath) that we need to make every effort to try to enter (v11).

Since Jesus has done the work for us, he is therefore "the great high priest" of verse 14.

That seems a trifle gossamer to me.