Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C

[Jim an Apostle]

I will point out if one says its through the Holy Spirit we are saved then they make Yeshua's sacrifice for nothing. He didn't have to Die. God could of just given us the Holy Spirit to dwell in us.

that is not what I am saying.
I said ...
The death burial and resurrection and Glorification of Jesus made it possible to have eternal life. However, It is the Spirit that actually gives us the Life!

Gen 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It took the sacrifice of Jesus to appease the wrath of God for sin and to restore our fellowship with Him. God only had one remedy for sin … DEATH!
It took the life , death, and resurrection of Christ to make the way for our fellowship to be restored. Our fellowship is through the Spirit! Jesus death made that available for the repentant believer. Any fellowship before Pentecost was limited in nature and was on credit in faith that Jesus would complete His mission.
God gave us grace (empowerment) in the beginning, Adam through it away. Jesus made it possible to have it restored.
God's justice would not let Him just give us the Spirit without the penalty of sin being resolved. Jesus had to die to keep God from destroying the whole of creation for God's only remedy for the sin that had contaminated the universe would have been total destruction except for Jesus making the way for God to satisfy His justice and restore us to sonship.
Before the resurrection those who died in the faith were not allowed to go to Heaven but rather to Paradise (Abrahams bosom, see the story of the rich man and Lazarus)
After the resurrection many of the saints were seen in Jerusalem. Now, to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord.

Eph 2 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Without Him No access to the Spirit or the Father.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 16
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 6
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
​

How will Jesus raise him up? through the Spirit!​

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Romans 8​

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Father and His Spirit work in concert with the Son! We should not exclude one or the other from the equation!

 

[Nikud]

that is not what I am saying.
I said ...
The death burial and resurrection and Glorification of Jesus made it possible to have eternal life. However, It is the Spirit that actually gives us the Life!

If your saying the Spirit plays a vital role (I don't like how this comes across but lack of a better word "animates") in the resurrection we would be in agreeance.

The Law could not make one righteous or Holy, all it could really do was point out ones failure and sin. Abraham was justified by Faith the Law was added but could not give eternal Life, that requires the regeneration of the Holy Spirit

This came after many insinuations that I was saying that Torah gives salvation. After this your are talking about salvation again. So this is sandwiched between you speaking about salvation and you are saying now that your not saying the Holy Spirit gives you Salvation.

I was clear before you said

I suppose that would be a good discussion what does give eternal life?

that I was speaking of salvation. If you weren't then you should have said so then. I would have apologized. You didn't though. You carried on using the same verses that I've seen in the church I teach at and many other charasmatic churches we work with by hypercharsmatics who say that the Holy Spirit gives salvation. I am also well aware of the hypercharasmatic teachings that say eternal life is salvation.

If I was wrong about what you were saying I apologize.
It just sounds to me like your saying what I think you said.

Just to clear things up are you saying: pick the ones that apply

1) The Father through Yeshua gives Salvation and the Ruach is what "animates" or does the work on the body in the resurrection.

2) Eternal life is a gift of grace that comes with Salvation: Which is the deliverance from sin and it's wages

3) The Holy Spirit imparts salvation that Yeshua made possible

4) Eternal life is Salvation.

 

[PeteR]

There would be no answer that would satisfy your interpretation. Your reality is created by your belief. And I don't have a problem with that, mine is created by mine. If God has commanded you to not eat pork, or observe a day, or whatever, then do it. But, if God could also tell another person to paint all the mailboxes in their neighborhood blue, then that's a current law (command) to them, and it is just as valid.

You may think the mailbox thing is stupid, but consider lying on your side naked for a bunch of days, or eating dung. If God is God then He can direct His children to anything He wants, the question is, well that child listen. The whole point in all this to me is, do you follow the old law to show to God you love Him or do you follow the new law, that includes the old law, to show him you love Him. If the new law for you is to follow the old law, then do it, but that doesn't remove the possibility that some may experience commands for today that may not fit into the old law understanding.

Here is the thing, suppose there is a person in your neighborhood who is at the end, they can go no more, they pray their last prayer and say, "God, if my mailbox turns blue I will believe in you". Along, you come knock on the door and say, I have no idea why I am suppose to do this but the God I serve has told me to go and paint all the mailboxes in my neighborhood blue, can I do this for you. What do you think that person who was crying to God will do? I doubt very seriously if that same person walked up to that person, knocked on the door and said, Follow Torah and you will be saved because that's what God wants you to do, I don't think you would get the same response.

Maybe following Torah (or maybe even Jews) is for believers to find their way sometimes, ,maybe following God's Spirit is a way to help unbelievers find their way?

If God tells me to go paint mailboxes and I tell you that is what He told me to do, then you say, well God be with you and His will be done. If you say, God told me to honor the weekly Sabbath, I say, well God be with you and His will be done. If I say, God has told me to tell YOU to paint mailboxes, or you say, God has told you to tell ME to not eat shrimp, then that is where the problem lies I believe. The wrong is in the telling others to follow their interpretation.

Will the Spirit ever command you to do something that is a clear violation of the revealed (written) Word of God?

 

[Cap]

Will the Spirit ever command you to do something that is a clear violation of the revealed (written) Word of God?

No. Who's interpretation though? If someone came along and said, God wants us to honor the sixth day, would be clear violation. But saying that you should honor the Sabbath but not clearly define what day that actually is, AND then expound on the command to bring up the idea that there is a higher purpose in the command does not violate the command but causes one to look deeper into what is being commanded.

God said do not murder. But he also expounded on that command to do not hate. We fail at the second part so therefore fail at the first. We have violated the command because we truly don't understand the command.

 

[Pacman]

If someone came along and said, God wants us to honor the sixth day,

They are a false teacher and they should not be listened to... and I’m being extremely kind.

 

[Pacman]

I believe you are rather twisting things around Kevin.
I believe Jim is saying it is thru the Holy Spirit we are saved. That is how the Father communicates with His people. Jesus was clear he would send His Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all Truth. It is the Holy Spirit that prepares the heart for it to be renewed.
GuysQuit telling each other based on what you are misunderstanding on this forum that someone is saved or isn't. In the end your vote won't matter on that issue.

Bro I realize that @Kevin can be a bit aggressive sometimes but he was answering exactly what @Jim an Apostle was alluding to... please read it here however much backpedaling he tries to do...

 

[Nikud]

Ezekiel 36:26-27

26 Moreover I will give you a new heart. I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the stony heart from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Ruach within you. Then I will cause you to walk in My statutes, so you will keep My rulings and do them.

This is saying what will happen after you recieve His Holy Spirit. Where are His Statutes found? What exactly are they?

 

[yoderfamily]

Bro I realize that @Kevin can be a bit aggressive sometimes but he was answering exactly what @Jim an Apostle was alluding to... please read it here however much backpedaling he tries to do...

I can't find any reference saying salvation comes only thru the Holy Spirit. Could you point out the exact wording in the post that leads you to believe that's what he meant?

 

[Cap]

They are a false teacher and they should not be listened to... and I’m being extremely kind.

Just to be clear, "If someone came along and said, God wants us to honor the sixth day, would be clear violation."

Wonder why you left out the part after the comma. But nevertheless, I agree with you.

 

[Cap]

Ezekiel 36:26-27

26 Moreover I will give you a new heart. I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the stony heart from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Ruach within you. Then I will cause you to walk in My statutes, so you will keep My rulings and do them.

This is saying what will happen after you recieve His Holy Spirit. Where are His Statutes found? What exactly are they?

Is this an instantaneous event or one that occurs over time?

 

[PeteR]

Is this an instantaneous event or one that occurs over time?

The recieving of the Spirit is instantaneous, but the 'causing to walk in My statutes and tuljngs'' is progressive. This is the process of 'sanctification' and should lead us evermore to walking as Yeshua walked.. 'What did He do?'. Or, another way, the Spirit that leads us is the same One who led the prophets and Apostles and they all walked and pointed people back to Torah. Therefore....

 

[Cap]

The recieving of the Spirit is instantaneous, but the 'causing to walk in My statutes and tuljngs'' is progressive. This is the process of 'sanctification' and should lead us evermore to walking as Yeshua walked.. 'What did He do?'. Or, another way, the Spirit that leads us is the same One who led the prophets and Apostles and they all walked and pointed people back to Torah. Therefore....

Ok so 'causing to walk in My statutes and
tuljngs is progressive'' is up for interpretation. You say, they are old statues and rulings, I say they are new statues and rulings based on old statues and rulings, but with greater spiritual meaning.

Face it, the world we are going to is a spiritual world and earthly laws only show a shadow of things in that world. Following earthly laws is a sign of Hagar as ones mother (per Paul), following spiritual laws (based on earthly laws for us to understand) is a sign of Sarah as ones mother. (again, per Paul).

I'm looking forward to going to the new Jerusalem, not going back to the old Jerusalem. Although, I imagine that it will be home to some who can't cross the Jordan.

 

[Pacman]

Bro I realize that @Kevin can be a bit aggressive sometimes but he was answering exactly what @Jim an Apostle was alluding to... please read it here however much backpedaling he tries to do...

I can't find any reference saying salvation comes only thru the Holy Spirit. Could you point out the exact wording in the post that leads you to believe that's what he meant?

Imo it’s the whole post. If you see it differently that’s fine but I think it was totally appropriate for @Kevin to call him on it... we should probably just move on instead of derailing the discussion...

 

[PeteR]

Ok so 'causing to walk in My statutes and
tuljngs is progressive'' is up for interpretation. You say, they are old statues and rulings, I say they are new statues and rulings based on old statues and rulings, but with greater spiritual meaning.

Face it, the world we are going to is a spiritual world and earthly laws only show a shadow of things in that world. Following earthly laws is a sign of Hagar as ones mother (per Paul), following spiritual laws (based on earthly laws for us to understand) is a sign of Sarah as ones mother. (again, per Paul).

I'm looking forward to going to the new Jerusalem, not going back to the old Jerusalem. Although, I imagine that it will be home to some who can't cross the Jordan.

Here are a couple passages from Revelation regarding the New Jerusalem... compared to prophecy in Ezekiel 37.

21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

 

[Cap]

Here are a couple passages from Revelation regarding the New Jerusalem... compared to prophecy in Ezekiel 37.

21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

I am not understanding your point, the " do his commandments" and "they all shall
also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them" is still up to the interpretation of those who view there meaning based on the old view or the new view.

 

[PeteR]

I am not understanding your point, the " do his commandments" and "they all shall
also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them" is still up to the interpretation of those who view there meaning based on the old view or the new view.

Yeah.... I guess He wasn't serious when He judged Irsael for not obeying His commands. Maybe He'll apologize to them for making everlasting promises that He changed the definitions and rules of... heck, He can just say, 'it's up for interpretation'.

 

[Pacman]

Matthew 7:23 NASB
[23] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Matthew 13:40-43 NASB
[40] So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, [42] and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

1 John 3:4 NASB
[4] Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.


These passages are nothing to ignore they have some very serious implications and we know that God is a just judge so these passages beg the questionWHAT LAW???

 

[Cap]

Yeah.... I guess He wasn't serious when He judged Irsael for not obeying His commands. Maybe He'll apologize to them for making everlasting promises that He changed the definitions and rules of... heck, He can just say, 'it's up for interpretation'.

Israel was judged for unfaithfulness and the majority of the Hebrew nation didn't not go into the promised land because of unbelief. I prefer to trust God in the promise made to me, that HE will save me. Save yourself with the laws you can't keep if you have to.

 

[Pacman]

Save yourself with the laws you can't keep if you have to.

Dude this crap has to stop!!! No one here is claiming that keeping the Torah is the way of salvation. And you know it and you keep doing this whenever you have run out of arguments. It’s an intentional personal attack and it’s out of line! This has been said multiple times in multiple threads. KNOCK IT OFF!!!

 

[Pacman]

Israel was judged for unfaithfulness and the majority of the Hebrew nation didn't not go into the promised land because of unbelief.

Wrong it was because of disobedience.

Deuteronomy 1:26 NASB
[26] "Yet you were not willing to go up, but rebelled against the command of the LORD your God;