What is fornication?

[Deesee25]

This is a fundamental evil in the Greeco/Roman cultural view. Women are devalued and kicked to the curb when they no longer give a man pleasure, and he can just move on to another, leaving a trail of broken women in his wake.

I never said he had to kick her to the curb. Plus thr reality is going to happen anyways. As I keep stressing its women who are leaving most relationship especially marriages not men. There's more single men than there are single women. Are there men who do these things? Of course but 1. 9/10 these are the men women are choosing to be with so a lot of that is their fault anyways. 2. We know the vast majority of men aren't doing this anyways as there tend to be more single younger guys than females.

 

[Deesee25]

For a man to sleep around, he has to have women to sleep with. So this implies women must sleep around also.

The part of your argument that I honestly find disgraceful is that you are devaluing the women that your hypothetical son might sleep with. You value your daughter enough to tell her not to do this, but don't care how many other men's daughters your son caused to sleep around. They are just faceless bodies, not people, and can be ignored.

This is a fundamental evil in the Greeco/Roman cultural view. Women are devalued and kicked to the curb when they no longer give a man pleasure, and he can just move on to another, leaving a trail of broken women in his wake.

It's also a major evil of the "MGTOW" movement etc - you end up with "alpha" males who get the girls and sleep around, and "beta" males who the alphas despise but actually end up marrying those broken women and helping them heal and become the mothers they were destined to be.

Women are far more valuable than this.

I'll also add there are some women who just want to bang you with no strings attached. I know it sounds crazy but they do exist I've met a few. I think we servely underestimate that women do enjoy sex too.

 

[FollowingHim]

Since women tend to have more than one partner she's going to be comparing you to her previous ones I've seen this happen quite a bit. So it is better for him to have some experience at least more than her or else he's gonna be at a servere disadvantage. I don't make the rules man I just gotta follow them lol. We tend to want to look at the world for what it should be rather than what it is.

So, because the world is promiscuous I need to be even more promiscuous so I know how to live in the world?

That is not the life of a Christian. Rather:

The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Romans 13:12-14

The term "chambering" is a euphemism - the Greek is koite, meaning sex. The term "wantonness" is elsewhere translated laschiviousness, it means to be focussed on pursuing the lusts of the body, whether sexual or otherwise. This passage directly states that a Christian life should NOT include promiscuous sex. This is pretty obvious to anyone, every church has taught it forever - it is right to re-examine the teachings of the church and ensure they truly come from scripture and are not just cultural prudishness, but this one is there in black and white.

You are trying to find excuses to justify an ungodly lifestyle - trying to find ways to claim that lifestyle is not ungodly. You are doing this by being hyper-legalistic, to narrow the law down as far as possible, leaving as much outside the law as you can. But that's the attitude of a Pharisee. You are forgetting what it means to be a Christian.

We are called to be Jesus' disciples, to try and follow in his footsteps. To find the heart of God and do what He would want us to do. NOT to just avoid breaking laws, but to actually build His Kingdom on earth, bringing all things into submission to Him. And the first thing we must subjugate to Him is ourselves.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 12:2

And as @Mark C constantly reminds us:
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Revelation 18:4

 

[OttoM]

I'll also add there are some women who just want to bang you with no strings attached. I know it sounds crazy but they do exist I've met a few. I think we servely underestimate that women do enjoy sex too.

It’s not wrong to enjoy or like sex. It’s wrong how it’s done. This is where a man must wash her clean with the Word, which is the Light; and to expose the darkness and the works of it. We shouldn’t partake in the darkness, but be set apart. So fornicating with non married women - even if they are asking for it - shouldn’t be done by believers.

 

[Deesee25]

It’s not wrong to enjoy or like sex. It’s wrong how it’s done. This is where a man must wash her clean with the Word, which is the Light; and to expose the darkness and the works of it. We shouldn’t partake in the darkness, but be set apart. So fornicating with non married women - even if they are asking for it - shouldn’t be done by believers.

The word fornication is not what people think it means. Again most of that came from Greco-Roman theology the Greek word porniea translate to arch/prostitution. All the sexual immoral acts are outline in leviticus 18. The fact that it means pre-matrial sex was always obsurd as there never was any evidence that's what I meant.

 

[OttoM]

The word fornication is not what people think it means. Again most of that came from Greco-Roman theology the Greek word porniea translate to arch/prostitution. All the sexual immoral acts are outline in leviticus 18. The fact that it means pre-matrial sex was always obsurd as there never was any evidence that's what I meant.

Leviticus 19:29 KJV
Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.

The man whom took her virginity - and didn’t go about it righteously - didn’t marry her (or was refused marriage by her father) - is also guilty of sin.

 

[Deesee25]

It’s not wrong to enjoy or like sex. It’s wrong how it’s done. This is where a man must wash her clean with the Word, which is the Light; and to expose the darkness and the works of it. We shouldn’t partake in the darkness, but be set apart. So fornicating with non married women - even if they are asking for it - shouldn’t be done by believers.

So, because the world is promiscuous I need to be even more promiscuous so I know how to live in the world?

That is not the life of a Christian. Rather:

The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Romans 13:12-14

The term "chambering" is a euphemism - the Greek is koite, meaning sex. The term "wantonness" is elsewhere translated laschiviousness, it means to be focussed on pursuing the lusts of the body, whether sexual or otherwise. This passage directly states that a Christian life should NOT include promiscuous sex. This is pretty obvious to anyone, every church has taught it forever - it is right re-examine the teachings of the church and ensure they truly come from scripture and are not just cultural prudishness, but this one is there in black and white.

You are trying to find excuses to justify an ungodly lifestyle - trying to find ways to claim that lifestyle is not ungodly. You are doing this by being hyper-legalistic, to narrow the law down as far as possible, leaving as much outside the law as you can. But that's the attitude of a Pharisee. You are forgetting what it means to be a Christian.

We are called to be Jesus' disciples, to try and follow in his footsteps. To find the heart of God and do what He would want us to do. NOT to just avoid breaking laws, but to actually build His Kingdom on earth, bringing all things into submission to Him. And the first thing we must subjugate to Him is ourselves.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 12:2

And as @Mark C constantly reminds us:
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Revelation 18:4

Lust doesn't mean what we think it means. It always meant covetousness. Wanting something that doesn't belong to you. The word that people believe is prematrial sex is fornication however that word has proven not to mean pre martial sex. Again if you can show me one place in the old testament condemning this then I'll take your word for it but I can't find it. Yeah just because the church has taught this for years doesn't mean it's correct. The church used to believe Salvation meant works and faith but that wasn't true that's when the reformation came in If your just going to say. "Lust of the body" then that can mean anything. Someone just wanting food is a desire of the body. Men slept women throughout the Bible but it was never condemned once. You call me a pharisee but Christians tend to do the same thing by putting on legalistic burdens that are never specifically in scripture. They just put it by assumption.

 

[Deesee25]

So, because the world is promiscuous I need to be even more promiscuous so I know how to live in the world?

Unless you can find a virgin bride which doesn't exist anymore so good luck with that. My thing is there's men in scripture who slept with prostitute and other women yet it was never condemned for us to that is assuming. And I'd also look at the non-western version of some of those words cause they have changed dramatically overtime

 

[frederick]

Unless you can find a virgin bride which doesn't exist anymore so good luck with that.

You are making blanket statements that are factually incorrect to justify your beliefs. You would do better to stick with the facts if you want to be taken seriously. There are women here and abroad who are virgins of marital age, and some are stunningly beautiful. I don't need your good luck!

 

[OttoM]

Unless you can find a virgin bride which doesn't exist anymore so good luck with that. My thing is there's men in scripture who slept with prostitute and other women yet it was never condemned for us to that is assuming. And I'd also look at the non-western version of some of those words cause they have changed dramatically overtime

Romans 12:2 NLT
Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.

Why not be set apart and holy? Did Abraham, Gideon, David, Moses, Jacob, and many others sleep with prostitutes? Or did they add wives?

We are living in Babylon. No woman is going to be 100% clean. But so aren’t the men. So wash her clean with the Word, and see if the Word sanctifies her. If it does and there’s faith in the Savior and Redeemer (Yahushua), then instead of having a one night stand that doesn’t do much in terms of helping the Master’s Kingdom - perhaps you gain a wife:

Acts 26:18 NLT
open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God’s people, who are set apart by faith in me

 

[FollowingHim]

Lust doesn't mean what we think it means. It always meant covetousness. Wanting something that doesn't belong to you. The word that people believe is prematrial sex is fornication however that word has proven not to mean pre martial sex. Again if you can show me one place in the old testament condemning this then I'll take your word for it but I can't find it. Yeah just because the church has taught this for years doesn't mean it's correct. The church used to believe Salvation meant works and faith but that wasn't true that's when the reformation came in If your just going to say. "Lust of the body" then that can mean anything. Someone just wanting food is a desire of the body. Men slept women throughout the Bible but it was never condemned once. You call me a pharisee but Christians tend to do the same thing by putting on legalistic burdens that are never specifically in scripture. They just put it by assumption.

You are talking past me - I didn't mention lust - and have ignored all the scripture I did quote. I do not believe you are receptive to hearing advice, so will not put too much effort into making a new response. You need to change the attitude of your heart. Re-read my last post. You are in grave error.

 

[Deesee25]

You are making blanket statements that are factually incorrect to justify your beliefs. You would do better to stick with the facts if you want to be taken seriously. There are women here and abroad who are virgins of marital age, and some are stunningly beautiful. I don't need your good luck!

The vast majority of women lose their virginity before they even turn 18. Only 5% of women are even virgins on their wedding night. If you want "facts" those are the facts. It's just not the facts people want to here.

 

[OttoM]

The vast majority of women lose their virginity before they even turn 18. Only 5% of women are even virgins on their wedding night. If you want "facts" those are the facts. It's just not the facts people want to here.

John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved

Fathers have let their daughters and sons down. Churches have let people down, because they teach very little on social responsibilities. Schooling has let them down. Modern culture has let them down. There are lots of forces working together against them.

Does that mean we should throw in the towel, and join in with them? Of course not! These sins can be forgiven through the redeeming blood of Yahushua.

This is, unfortunately, the fruit of pastors teaching their congregations that Jesus did away with his own law, so of course lawlessness becomes the fruit of this teaching. Instead of being conformed to the Word of the Most High - they get conformed to the ways of the world.

 

[Deesee25]

Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing th way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.

It's vague language. Cause customs and behaviors change throughout time. My issue is that it's vague terminology that you guys are using. This is how pharisee like people can come in and say "this is sinful, that's sinful" etc. Am I saying that guy should just go bang any that walks on 2 legs? Of course not nor am I saying a guy should just pump and dump females. All I said was get some experience that's it. I'll leave it to ones conscience on how they should approach that.

You should still utilize self control and discernment but this idea that you must withhold yourself like this is ridiculous too. There were men in bible like Samson Judah and others who slept with females but it was never condemn. As I said before if you look at the catholic Church around 400 AD that's where most Christian views of sex comes from. They were almost opposed to sex altogether overtime it has gotten better but a lot of Christians have still held those views.

 

[Deesee25]

Does that mean we should throw in the towel, and join in with them? Of course not! These sins can be forgiven through the redeeming blood of Yahushua. This is, unfortunately, the fruit of generations of bad teachings. For example, Jesus did away with his own law, so lawlessness is the fruit of this teaching.

Well you can do that all you want but your fighting a losing battle and playing the game on hard mode. Again I'm not saying you should just go bang anything on 2 legs. Self-control and discren is key. All I said was get some experience that's it so the woman or women you haven't aren't tempted to previous lovers. Be the best you can be.

 

[Deesee25]

You are talking past me - I didn't mention lust - and have ignored all the scripture I did quote. I do not believe you are receptive to hearing advice, so will not put too much effort into making a new response. You need to change the attitude of your heart. Re-read my last post. You are in grave error.

Well let me ask you this then. Let's say a guy has multiple females he's seeing. He doesn't pump them and dump them but he has a relationship with all of them they're his women but they live on their own. Kind of like in Isiah when it says seven women will grab one man and pay for all their things but still want to he his. In your viewpoint would that be any different?

 

[Deesee25]

So, because the world is promiscuous I need to be even more promiscuous so I know how to live in the world?

That is not the life of a Christian. Rather:

The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Romans 13:12-14

The term "chambering" is a euphemism - the Greek is koite, meaning sex. The term "wantonness" is elsewhere translated laschiviousness, it means to be focussed on pursuing the lusts of the body, whether sexual or otherwise. This passage directly states that a Christian life should NOT include promiscuous sex. This is pretty obvious to anyone, every church has taught it forever - it is right re-examine the teachings of the church and ensure they truly come from scripture and are not just cultural prudishness, but this one is there in black and white.

You are trying to find excuses to justify an ungodly lifestyle - trying to find ways to claim that lifestyle is not ungodly. You are doing this by being hyper-legalistic, to narrow the law down as far as possible, leaving as much outside the law as you can. But that's the attitude of a Pharisee. You are forgetting what it means to be a Christian.

We are called to be Jesus' disciples, to try and follow in his footsteps. To find the heart of God and do what He would want us to do. NOT to just avoid breaking laws, but to actually build His Kingdom on earth, bringing all things into submission to Him. And the first thing we must subjugate to Him is ourselves.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 12:2

And as @Mark C constantly reminds us:
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Revelation 18:4

I think there's a difference between a believer and a discipline. There were those who believe on Jesus during his ministry but didn't become a discipline. I definitely don't believe that's me but maybe I'll be wrong I don't think I can meet that standard but that's me.

My mistake btw I thought for you said lust must of got confused by the other guy. I'm multi-tasking here and just saw the responses

 

[Deesee25]

You are talking past me - I didn't mention lust - and have ignored all the scripture I did quote. I do not believe you are receptive to hearing advice, so will not put too much effort into making a new response. You need to change the attitude of your heart. Re-read my last post. You are in grave error.

And I also looked up what chambering means on the blue letter bible in some instance its used as bed but others it can he used as lawful or unlawful sexual activity. What is unlawful sexual activity is the question? I would say what's outlined in leviticus. Unless you can point to other passages that's all we have. My thing is we're adding to the scriptures that aren't there.

The church has taught this but if you see where it stems from in the early church in general they were pretty much anti-sex altogether and called it the "original sin". Yes I understand being a believer Is not all about laws (even though Christians seem to make it be nothing but that) trust me I 100% support that. If my problem is if we don't have clear definition and guidelines on what's permissible and what's not anyone can just make up things and say it's wrong as church as done throughout time based on vague word like this.

 

[FollowingHim]

I think there's a difference between a believer and a discipline. There were those who believe on Jesus during his ministry but didn't become a discipline. I definitely don't believe that's me but maybe I'll be wrong I don't think I can meet that standard but that's me.

In the New Testament, every believer is described as a "disciple". There is no difference. There were 12 "apostles", they're different, we're not all apostles. But everyone who follows Jesus is a disciple.

A disciple is someone who follows and willingly obeys someone. It's more than just belief, but obedience. And it is absolutely necessary. Belief alone is worthless - because if you really believed, you would obey. If you do not see a need to seek God's will and obey that, you do not truly believe.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And without actually seeking and doing God's will, you will not be saved.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You are correct that you cannot reach that standard, alone. Nobody can. Which is why God sends us the Holy Spirit, to change our hearts and give us the power to actually follow Jesus.

I could respond to many other details of what you have said above, but they are details. The fundamental problem is that you need to change your entire attitude, from trying to find precisely what details are "sin" so you can do everything else, to seeking God's will and living a life in accordance with that will. You've got Christianity entirely backwards.

 

[Deesee25]

A disciple is someone who follows and willingly obeys someone. It's more than just belief, but obedience. And it is absolutely necessary. Belief alone is worthless - because if you really believed, you would obey. If you do not see a need to seek God's will and obey that, you do not truly believe.

Well that's a whole other discussion right there. As there's example of people who did believe but never had a chance to do any obedience. The thief on the cross as an example. Yes you should obey but obedience is not what gets you into heaven. There's plenty of examples scripture of this to back this up. If belief alone is worthless then I guess nobody will make it in.