I withdraw my assertions of a yearly Sabbath reset until I have the time to revisit my notes and do more research on this.
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Acts 15/Galatians 2 To C or not to C
- Thread starter Verifyveritas76
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I withdraw my assertions of a yearly Sabbath reset until I have the time to revisit my notes and do more research on this.
C
Cap
Guest
The weekly Sabbath is reset every month with the new moon. The new moon is a commandment the same as the weekly Sabbath and the same as the yearly festivals. Why only the weekly Sabbath is paid attention to and not the new moon makes no sense to me. The new moon resets the weeks just like the barley resets the year.
How do Torah observers get around this?
Sorry for the long post but it's important.
Numbers 28:11
'Then at the beginning of each of your months you shall present a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls and one ram, seven male lambs one year old without defect;
Numbers 10:10
"Also in the day of your gladness and in your appointed feasts, and on the first days of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; and they shall be as a reminder of you before your God. I am the LORD your God."
Psalm 81:3
Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast day.
Numbers 28:11-15
'Then at the beginning of each of your months you shall present a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls and one ram, seven male lambs one year old without defect; and three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for each bull; and two-tenths of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for the one ram; and a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering for each lamb, for a burnt offering of a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the LORD.
1 Chronicles 23:30-31
They are to stand every morning to thank and to praise the LORD, and likewise at evening, and to offer all burnt offerings to the LORD, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the LORD.
2 Chronicles 2:4
"Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God, dedicating it to Him, to burn fragrant incense before Him and to set out the showbread continually, and to offer burnt offerings morning and evening, on sabbaths and on new moons and on the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, this being required forever in Israel.
2 Chronicles 8:12-13
Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths.
2 Chronicles 31:3
He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD.
Nehemiah 10:32-33
We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God.
Ezekiel 45:17
"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel."
Ezekiel 46:1
'Thus says the Lord GOD, "The gate of the inner court facing east shall be shut the six working days; but it shall be opened on the sabbath day and opened on the day of the new moon.
1 Samuel 20:5
So David said to Jonathan, "Behold, tomorrow is the new moon, and I ought to sit down to eat with the king But let me go, that I may hide myself in the field until the third evening.
2 Kings 4:23
He said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor sabbath." And she said, "It will be well."
Amos 8:5
saying, "When will the new moon be over, So that we may sell grain, And the sabbath, that we may open the wheat market, To make the bushel smaller and the shekel bigger, And to cheat with dishonest scales,
Isaiah 1:13-14
"Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies-- I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. "I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them.
Hosea 2:11
"I will also put an end to all her gaiety, Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths And all her festal assemblies.
Hosea 5:7
Verse Concepts
They have dealt treacherously against the LORD, For they have borne illegitimate children Now the new moon will devour them with their land.
Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
How do Torah observers get around this?
Sorry for the long post but it's important.
Numbers 28:11
'Then at the beginning of each of your months you shall present a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls and one ram, seven male lambs one year old without defect;
Numbers 10:10
"Also in the day of your gladness and in your appointed feasts, and on the first days of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; and they shall be as a reminder of you before your God. I am the LORD your God."
Psalm 81:3
Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast day.
Numbers 28:11-15
'Then at the beginning of each of your months you shall present a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls and one ram, seven male lambs one year old without defect; and three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for each bull; and two-tenths of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for the one ram; and a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering for each lamb, for a burnt offering of a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the LORD.
1 Chronicles 23:30-31
They are to stand every morning to thank and to praise the LORD, and likewise at evening, and to offer all burnt offerings to the LORD, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the LORD.
2 Chronicles 2:4
"Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God, dedicating it to Him, to burn fragrant incense before Him and to set out the showbread continually, and to offer burnt offerings morning and evening, on sabbaths and on new moons and on the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, this being required forever in Israel.
2 Chronicles 8:12-13
Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths.
2 Chronicles 31:3
He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD.
Nehemiah 10:32-33
We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God.
Ezekiel 45:17
"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel."
Ezekiel 46:1
'Thus says the Lord GOD, "The gate of the inner court facing east shall be shut the six working days; but it shall be opened on the sabbath day and opened on the day of the new moon.
1 Samuel 20:5
So David said to Jonathan, "Behold, tomorrow is the new moon, and I ought to sit down to eat with the king But let me go, that I may hide myself in the field until the third evening.
2 Kings 4:23
He said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor sabbath." And she said, "It will be well."
Amos 8:5
saying, "When will the new moon be over, So that we may sell grain, And the sabbath, that we may open the wheat market, To make the bushel smaller and the shekel bigger, And to cheat with dishonest scales,
Isaiah 1:13-14
"Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies-- I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. "I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them.
Hosea 2:11
"I will also put an end to all her gaiety, Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths And all her festal assemblies.
Hosea 5:7
Verse Concepts
They have dealt treacherously against the LORD, For they have borne illegitimate children Now the new moon will devour them with their land.
Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Leviticus 23
The Feast of Pentecost
15And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. 17Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD. 18And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD. 19Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings. 20And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. 21And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
I believe the feast of Pentecost is connected the concept of the celebration of Jubilee. They were both a cycle of 50. The seven sabbatical years leading up to Jubilee were counted, then a Jubilee year was added, or en essence a double sabbath year, then the count started over again. So likewise, the sabbath days were counted to Pentecost which was a double sabbath and a NEW meat offering was offered. When you offer something NEW... you start over. This is what reset the sabbath to a rotation that would make the sabbath eventually fall on each day of the week, if one reckoned days as we do now. This made Him Lord of every day, not just Saturdays. This meshed with the 8th day being a 'new beginning,' which now makes sense. The New Moons were just New Moons. They were additional observances that set months, but not sabbaths. There was a reset of the Sabbath, but it was yearly at Pentecost which was the day of the 'giving of the Law' and also the 'giving of the Spirit' which brought the New covenant into full force.
It seems this understanding may have been lost at some point. Maybe VV with his resources will find some indications that will historically confirm this.
The Feast of Pentecost
15And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. 17Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD. 18And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD. 19Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings. 20And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. 21And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
I believe the feast of Pentecost is connected the concept of the celebration of Jubilee. They were both a cycle of 50. The seven sabbatical years leading up to Jubilee were counted, then a Jubilee year was added, or en essence a double sabbath year, then the count started over again. So likewise, the sabbath days were counted to Pentecost which was a double sabbath and a NEW meat offering was offered. When you offer something NEW... you start over. This is what reset the sabbath to a rotation that would make the sabbath eventually fall on each day of the week, if one reckoned days as we do now. This made Him Lord of every day, not just Saturdays. This meshed with the 8th day being a 'new beginning,' which now makes sense. The New Moons were just New Moons. They were additional observances that set months, but not sabbaths. There was a reset of the Sabbath, but it was yearly at Pentecost which was the day of the 'giving of the Law' and also the 'giving of the Spirit' which brought the New covenant into full force.
It seems this understanding may have been lost at some point. Maybe VV with his resources will find some indications that will historically confirm this.
This statement has no scriptural support. Nowhere does it say to “reset” the weekly sabbath count.
C
Cap
Guest
re·set
/rēˈset/
verb
1.
set again or differently:
"I must reset the alarm"
Every jubilee, every seven year land Sabbath, ever month, every week is a reset. I am not sure what the problem is. Every reference in the Word of God that counts the start of a king's reign, the start of a new month, and the days in that month all start at 1. A reset.
If the days of the week are not reset then they would not go back to 1. The Word of God always references the numerical value the days of the week and the days within a month. The first coming of Christ was a reset and the second coming will be another. Even repentance and forgiveness is a reset. Why is it so hard for the week to reset?
I know why, because it's too hard for all of us to accept that God controls our weekly lives, or more importantly, our daily lives. Commerce is the key. It's all greater than the monogamy lie.
Amos 8:5
saying, "When will the new moon be over, So that we may sell grain, And the sabbath, that we may open the wheat market, To make the bushel smaller and the shekel bigger, And to cheat with dishonest scales,
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We have studied family members who believe as @Cap does and reset the sabbath every month.
Being aware of the verses where YHWH said he would cause the feasts and new moons to cease, we don't stress about how He ordered them to keep the calendar previously.
Each day is a gift that brings tests and blessings. Choose you this day WHOM ye will serve. Once that is settled in your heart walk it out the best you know how.
We will probably all laugh someday about points we thought we understood, and at things we got hung up on, once we are face to face with our maker and not seeing through the glass darkly. That's not to say that this isn't interesting....I think it is! Just sharing my thoughts.
Being aware of the verses where YHWH said he would cause the feasts and new moons to cease, we don't stress about how He ordered them to keep the calendar previously.
Each day is a gift that brings tests and blessings. Choose you this day WHOM ye will serve. Once that is settled in your heart walk it out the best you know how.
We will probably all laugh someday about points we thought we understood, and at things we got hung up on, once we are face to face with our maker and not seeing through the glass darkly. That's not to say that this isn't interesting....I think it is! Just sharing my thoughts.
Conversations like these, while it is great that people are trying to figure out the truth..., remind me of the woeful passages in Scripture about everyone doing what is right in their own eyes.
Everyone sees "right" a bit differently.
Everyone sees "right" a bit differently.
I will say this. IF it happened, it would have been adjusted only by the high priest. No one would have doubted his ability or authority to do so. That would just be life as they knew it and they’d probably be grateful that someone else was responsible for keeping the count or day.
Why would it be beyond the pale for our high priest (with infinitely perfect knowledge) to do the same.
Except those who knew what the Torah says and doesn’t say.
Because it wasn’t commanded to be done that way. It would have been a sin.
Deuteronomy 4:2 NASB
[2] You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deuteronomy 12:32 NASB
[32] "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.
Also he is not the earthly high priest he is the heavenly high priest.
Hebrews 8:4 NASB
[4] Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
C
Cap
Guest
Might want to read ALL of Hebrews 8. Which priest do those who know what the Torah says, follow?
Hebrews 8
The High Priest of a New Covenant
1Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
3Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” a 6But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said b :
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
Really? Who determines the day of the Feast of Trumpets? High Priest.
And its literally the day when no man knows the day or the hour because it could be one of two days. It was a normal common practice for the High priest to reset the beginning of the month to align the High Sabbath, in at least this instance, just as Nissan was adjusted as needed to correspond with the New Moon every year to get the Passover correct (read aligning the High Sabbath)
Your confidence in the calendar accuracy back then is perhaps a result of how accurate our calendars are today. I have seen anything but this in the fine details of their observance then, with little to no regard for it if the responsible men (elders, Sanhedrin, High Priest, etc) were on record supporting the reset or adjustment. They had people whose job it was to do just that. That umm, knew torah.
I agree with you on all points except for the weekly sabbath. There is no evidence of a reset for the weekly sabbath. Because God never said to reset it.
Does he ever say not to?
I know! Both are just a little silly because both are arguments from silence.
And yet, once the New Covenant is in force, Yeshua only meets with the disciples on a provable named day twice. Sunday.
BTW. I did do the study on the early believers going to the synagogues etc on the Sabbath
I did find one place where it seemed plausible that there was some sort of an assembly on the Sabbath for the possible purpose of assembly. Acts 16:16. However this one requires a lot of inference from verse 13 which seems to be primarily for the purpose of proselytizing. I suppose its a possibility (of assembly only) but seems improbable when viewed in light of the rest of the instances. It was also not at the synagogue, which may indicate that either there wasn’t one, or, that those at the river weren’t welcome there.
There was also several instances early on where they were meeting in Solomons porch in the Temple. I suppose that it may have been for a designated assembly, but I think its more plausible that this was where the different rabbi’s would teach their disciples. IDK. Also there is no association with a Sabbath assembly in the Temple, rather this was a daily habit until Stephen is stoned. After this event there is no association of a Christian assembly in the Temple that I could find.
Every other instance that I found was specifically for evangelizing the Jews in most cases but also to reason and dispute with them, Acts 13:14, 17:2, 18:4,19 typically ending in Paul being expelled or with him separating his new disciples Acts 19:9 from the synagogue.
I found it particularly interesting that only Paul, and those traveling with him are ever recorded as going to the synagogue, not Peter, Philip or any of the other Apostles or disciples.
Every time there is an assembly of the ekklesia, (after the pre Stephen event at Solomons porch) it is never associated with the synagogue, never associated with the sabbath or any day other than the few times referenced as a synago on the first day or Johns “in the Spirit on the Lords Day”.
To infer that all the believers observed the sabbaths at the synagogues because Paul went there to evangelize and reason and dispute is a stretch of massive proportions and is not supported by either the Text or the context.
I know! Both are just a little silly because both are arguments from silence.
And yet, once the New Covenant is in force, Yeshua only meets with the disciples on a provable named day twice. Sunday.
BTW. I did do the study on the early believers going to the synagogues etc on the Sabbath
I did find one place where it seemed plausible that there was some sort of an assembly on the Sabbath for the possible purpose of assembly. Acts 16:16. However this one requires a lot of inference from verse 13 which seems to be primarily for the purpose of proselytizing. I suppose its a possibility (of assembly only) but seems improbable when viewed in light of the rest of the instances. It was also not at the synagogue, which may indicate that either there wasn’t one, or, that those at the river weren’t welcome there.
There was also several instances early on where they were meeting in Solomons porch in the Temple. I suppose that it may have been for a designated assembly, but I think its more plausible that this was where the different rabbi’s would teach their disciples. IDK. Also there is no association with a Sabbath assembly in the Temple, rather this was a daily habit until Stephen is stoned. After this event there is no association of a Christian assembly in the Temple that I could find.
Every other instance that I found was specifically for evangelizing the Jews in most cases but also to reason and dispute with them, Acts 13:14, 17:2, 18:4,19 typically ending in Paul being expelled or with him separating his new disciples Acts 19:9 from the synagogue.
I found it particularly interesting that only Paul, and those traveling with him are ever recorded as going to the synagogue, not Peter, Philip or any of the other Apostles or disciples.
Every time there is an assembly of the ekklesia, (after the pre Stephen event at Solomons porch) it is never associated with the synagogue, never associated with the sabbath or any day other than the few times referenced as a synago on the first day or Johns “in the Spirit on the Lords Day”.
To infer that all the believers observed the sabbaths at the synagogues because Paul went there to evangelize and reason and dispute is a stretch of massive proportions and is not supported by either the Text or the context.
Translation bias is pretty difficult to see when you are proof texting and reading your own bias into the text.
The day starts at sundown. Keep that in mind when reading this:
Acts 20:7-9 NASB
[7] On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. [8] There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. [9] And there was a young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead.
Also we are not prohibited from meeting on other days. The example of other meetings does not make any impact on the weekly sabbath. There are also passages about meeting daily...
Without a direct statement that says “you know that perpetual everlasting sabbath thingy? well I’m going to redefine perpetual and everlasting, but don’t worry it won’t effect everlasting life I’m only changing this one time. That whole thing about me not changing well this is the one exception” but he didn’t do that did he? And I for one am extremely grateful that he didn’t.
The sabbath has nothing to do with meetings. I would suggest that meetings might even be able to be violations of the sabbath. The sabbath is about resting and nothing else.
Leviticus 23:3 NASB
[3] 'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.
That word convocation means:
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
- convocation, convoking, reading, a calling together
- convocation, sacred assembly
- convoking
- reading
- convocation, sacred assembly
convocation (14), assemblies (2), convocations (2), assembly (1), reading(1), summoning (1)